Bad, bad, bad. No redeeming features to slavery and no redeeming features to Ashur. People were miserable while he lived in his big mansion and played the big man. He had to go. He wasn't fit to raise a child to be like himself either. Goodbye Ashur.

He is kinda of a "The ends justifies the means"
He was pursuing something for a greater good, but he had to use slave labor to help him accomplish that. But in the end his intentions were good, and his ways of accomplish it bad. So I think he is a grey character.

Fine, not job, role. Whatever, the slavers didn't get paid for hunting either. Besides, what are the workers going to spend their caps on? They don't pay rent, or pay for food. They're living a good life compared to most. Do as you're told, and live. Sure, they don't get the best food, or the cleanest beds, but they're surviving. More than what you can say for most 'free' wastelanders.

Plus, in peaceful, good times like we're living in, things aren't extreme, you don't get killed, you repeat the year. In Fallouts extreme case, extreme measures are taken. Why should they continue to receive free food and lodging when they aren't doing what they're told? They aren't holding their end of the bargain. As for the escapees, we don't know anything about what they did prior to their escape attempt, maybe it was their third strike or something. The guy being killed tied up was simply a scripting issue, the slavers were scripted to kill slaves, and that guy fit the bill, regardless of his predicament.

The slavers, with all their ammo and what-not need to use it for more dangerous foes, which are armed, like Wild Men, that are all over the city. They need to go out, hunt and kill for food. That's what they've been told to do. The slaves can make do, with their Auto-Axes or whatever, they can manage it. If the slaves are so useless that they can't even do the menial task of collecting steel, then they should all just be killed, I mean; this is society, this is how it works, everyone does their fair share. The task given was collecting steel.

I appreciate that the post-apocalyptic world of Fallout 3 is an extreme case, one that we cannot really identify with from our own lives. But surely the main issue around determining whether Ashur is good or bad is really one of individual liberty, or lack thereof.



Surviving is not the same as living. I know what I'd prefer - a choice between living in a forced labour camp, or taking my chances out in the Wasteland, there's no decision to be made. I'd choose the Wasteland option every time. Being able to make your own decisions and choose your own path has to beat being told when to eat, sleep and work as if you were an animal.

After all, what would you prefer - living on the bread line, struggling to make ends meet each week, but determining how you achieve this...or being in prison and have a guaranteed meal each day?



Conversely, why should they have to work when it wasn't their choice to be in this situation in the first place? Also, there is no bargain to speak of - the slaves did not choose to be part of this, no employer/employee contract has been broken. It has all been forced upon them.

I never said Ashur was perfect, or even good for that matter, as I stated I voted "Neutral". Because I thought his cause was good, however his means weren't. I still think if people accepted their situation and stuck to the program, life would be better in the Pitt for everyone. Despite Ashurs shortcomings.

Look at it this way, they've made monumental progress, as we can see. They have a civilized, fully functional society, if not slightly backward. I think being backward is acceptable though, as they're rebuilding from nothing, they don't have a choice. There's a slave you meet which knows this, his name is Adan if he can be convinced, why not others? I usually ice Midea in my game for good measure, as she's the one who puts all these outrageous ideas into the slaves heads in the first place, only giving them false hopes and getting them killed, as a result. If Adan stepped up to the plate, and showed everyone what he was reading, and preached it, The Pitt would work beautifully.

I see what your saying, and who knows what sacrifices mankind will have to make in order to rebuild from a catastrophy such as what FallOut creates. The OP isn't asking if slavery if neccesary to survive or rebuild a broken world, the OP is aking if Ashur is good. I don't think someone who adopts slavery as a means to get a job done can be called good, whether you feel it's neccessary or not.

I personally believe it would be possible to deliver what Ashur wants to achieve without using slavery. Communities have clearly rebuilt in other areas of the game and have overcome whatever obstacles were in their way whether it be food, shelter or even a means to protect themselves. If this wasn't possible I doubt we would have Megaton, Rivet City, Tennpenny Tower etc.

I see Ashur as stuck with the only viable option being something morally reprehensible. I'm sure he thought it over for a long while.

Wehrner, on the other hand, is just lustful for Ashur's power. I would be willing to bet Wehrner really got kicked because he made a power grab and it failed.

Ashur at least up front with you (on the major points at least). I'm no one's svcker.

Outrageous ideas...such as basic individual freedom? Midea is my favourite character in The Pitt, I sided with her, rather than Wernher. I dislike Wernher, but not Midea.



I could not disagree with this more. Adan's view is one of passive acceptance, rather than individual will. It is everything that a dictatorial regime could want. Enslaving our fellow man must not be justified or tolerated at all, whatever the apparent reason for it. If history has taught us anything, its this.

I agree about Whener, if the poll asked if he was good I would vote no straight away.

Which is why I choose Neutral on the poll. I don't think Ashur is good, but I don't think he's bad either. He simply cannot be called a bad guy. Atleast, he shouldn't.

Also, sure slavery may not be necessary to build a community such as Megaton or Rivet City, but as you can see, The Pitt is much larger, with much more potential and much more responsibilities to take care of. In Megaton we see Walter, and in Rivet City we have Henry Young. Both of them complain about how hard it is to keep the place running, and how they're working their asses off. Multiply their workload by a thousand, and you have the Pitt. Basically, we have hundreds of Henry Youngs and Walters roaming around in the Pitt, complaining.

Mmmm. There's a big difference between the two. The Pitt workers do not have a choice, in contrast Henry and Walter can come and go as they please. I'm surprised that you made this comparison.

thats a big assumption. how do you know they don't like the Pitt?
didn't see to many hands go up when Ashur offered them a fight
for freedom. you'd figure they would prefer that to slavery.. no?

Neutral for me. When I listened to what he told me, seeing how truthful he was about wanting to get things up and running, even if it meant slavery, then found the tapes in his safe for his daughter...I couldn't do it.
Wehrner was going down.

The man has good intentions without a doubt. His aim is to rebuild the city & in a world where every human right etc are out the window, slavery & dictatorship would be the only way to rebuild & create any form of law & order in my opinion. The slaves have a roof over their head & are given food. The question is would you realistically live in slavery or chance your life outside the steel mills of the pitt? Goodness knows what other mutated creatures could be there? Anyway back to the main question, i do believe Ashur is a good guy & i dont know, i just take his word for it when he says that he will share the cure with the slaves, even though midea doesn't. I believe he is regretful that he is the kingpin of the slavery there but he's not the same as the raiders which implement his rule with an iron fist, he is definately not.

Basic individual freedom is a right to every human being on Earth, I won't disagree, however, the slaves in the Pitt have been placed in a certain situation in which they're going to get killed one way or the other. If the idea that "we can be free too, you know?" isn't put in their mind by Midea, then they won't fret.

It's like going up to a child who's allergic to lollipops and saying; "You want this lollipop? So nice and yummy. So delicious and tasty, you want it? Well too bad, because you can't have it!" Catch my drift?

All Im saying is, given the circumstances they've been dealt, Adan is dealing with it the best, and all slaves should follow his example. It's the same ideology as "Mo' Money, Mo' Problems" in a way.

I'm guessing the people who said Ashur is bad wouldn't raise there hands to go fight
for their country. they'd wait to be conscripted lol. same logic applies here

You guess wrong my friend and I would not expect everyone who does volunteer to fight for their country to be an advocate of slavery either. Your logic isn't logical!

Ashur is "fighting the good fight" as Three Dog would say, but doing it within the societal confines of the Pitt. The raiders, the "bosses", are all freed slaves - but they don't remove Ashur, they "sell out" and join him. Why? Because they know that without the structure, and the promise of a cure, the Pitt would revert to pre-Scourge days.

Even if (spoilers!) you kill Ashur and the raiders, and give the cure to the slaves, they still complain that "they can't work on a cure because they're too busy working" - no-one is forcing them to work anymore, yet they still do. So basically, even though the slaves aren't being shot at or whipped anymore, their lives are no better. Ashur knows this, as do the free slaves/Pitt raiders. The society might be crap, but its better than the alternative. So in that respects he's a good character. And who is 101 to judge? he/she has done some dubious things for the greater good too...

Very well said. :foodndrink:

I figured both had to be eliminated for the greater good. So I did. Same with Point lookout. There can be no in between, your intenions have to be good or evil.

They really dropped the ball by not including post-quest material for the slaves in the event you free them IMO.

As such, I consider the fact things apparently don't change to be an invalid comparison point since I know they are now freed even though they don't act like it. Also, the fact they are free does not necessarily imply they would cease working, although what they are working on would probably be different. Of course, if they are smart they will get the hell out of there, so I suppose it would make sense in this case that work would cease. Badly handled all around, really.

Despite the fact they keep on working I would say their lives are definitely better in at least one respect- they no longer have to worry about randomly being shot by a jetting Raider for no real reason. As far as the slaves now being unprotected is concerned, I assume that they take the weapons from the dead Raiders and set up sentries or something. Maybe they don't, no way to know for sure, but at least they can defend themselves even if not very well.

While it is true I am making assumptions here, I would say the same is true of anyone who claims that Ashur will keep his word, since we have no proof whatever that this is actually the case. In fact, it might even be in his interests to not disseminate the cure, since a sick population is far less likely to manage a successful revolt than a healthy one. He certainly does not punish the Raiders who are continually taking potshots at the slaves wrecking cars, nor the one who killed three of them when you first entered, so I would again question just how committed he really is to improving the slaves' lot.

Exactly, and for example I don't ever see Ashur create a cure (let alone actually give it to his slave population) when I let him live, perhaps that was just a lie to avoid being taken out by the Lone Wanderer on sight?

That stuff doesn't happen overnight. Or even in a few weeks, it takes months, maybe even years of research. Plus, stuff like that is known to happen. When you tell Elder Lyons about Vault 87 being the source of Super Mutants, he doesn't seem to give a damn, we assume he sends in a squad after the events of FO3. Similarly, we assume Ashur will eventually do what he said he would. The game ends there, if things actually did go all the way along till a conclusion is formed, and there are no loose ends; we wouldn't have FO4 onwards. They need to leave things open.

How long it takes to do so isn't really relevant though. Take, for example, the ending cinematics from FO1 and 2; in those you get to see the effects your choices had on the various locations, and it's pretty obvious that in some cases it took months or even years for what you see to actually play out. You don't get to see that for The Pitt; as a result we don't know if he does or does not keep his promises, nor the extent to which he keeps any of them.

Fwiw I do not necessarily assume Lyons sends troops to V87 either, for all I know he needs them to protect the water caravans since my character can only be in one location at any given time and they are apparently running multiple such caravans. I will grant that odds are good he does send said troops since it would be a really smart move militarily speaking, but that doesn't mean it actually happens.

Since we don't get to see the end results of events that are left hanging, it cannot be said that anything is "known" to happen since we actually don't know if it does or not. As such, I do not claim that Ashur definitely does not back up his promises, since I cannot be sure that is the case, but rather that claims that he does do so are just as unfounded due to lack of proof.

He also had a problem, having set up the system he would get problem changing it as his raider guards would turn against him. Yes he could turn to the slaves side and help them revolt but that would require him to run away if successful. It was also a high risk that the town got destroyed in the revolt so it makes perfect sense to him to keep the system running.

For a pure good character killing Ashur is the obvious choice as he is runs a nasty system, that the end result might be worse is not so important. As in throwing the Shan of Iran )

An neutral character can do both, no requirements here, an evil character would usually take Ashur’s offer, however he might also decide to help the slaves as it would give better loot and probably put you in a high position after the revolt.