Hello everyone. (The forums seem to refuse my other browser, forgive me if three threads appear :S)

I've got a couple of questions regarding astronomy in TES. In particular the Dwemer take on it. I've read that the eight planets visible from Nirn represent the eight Aedra, and that the three Guardian Constellations consist not only of stars but of a planet as well, Akatosh, Julianos and Arkay in respectively the Warrior, the Mage and the Thief. When studied closely, both the Dwemer orreries at Stros M'Kai http://dwemerstudies.wiwiland.net/orrery_high.html and the Imperial City http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io5f6aZinCQ confirm this, explained further in the article I quoted earlier http://dwemerstudies.wiwiland.net/planets.html. The Academy for Dwemer Studies concludes that, in this http://dwemerstudies.wiwiland.net/images/planets.gif, p1 must be Arkay, p2 is Akatosh and p3 is Julianos.

Questions so far: is this conclusion correct?

Assuming the information above is all correct, I've stumbled upon an issue. If p1, p2 and p3 are indeed the three planets part of the Guardian Constellations (they're the only logical choice, since all other planets don't rotate in the same manner, and thus another trio of planets cannot permanently all remain in their constellation) they are shown, by both orreries, to reside in the same vertical plane (mathematically speaking, not lore-wise). This would imply that this plane, which also contains Nirn (p0), intersects the three Guardian Constellations.

However,the Guardian Constellations are shown to reside in different places on all star charts http://dwemerstudies.wiwiland.net/stars.html and the mere fact that each constellation represents a different month implies they're distributed evenly, each one occupying an (almost) equal angular field on the heavenly sphere (also shown on the star charts), and thus not in a vertical plane intersecting Nirn.

This means, mathematically, lore contradicts itself - either the orreries misrepresent the actual positions of the planets and the three "static" planets and Nirn are not in the same plane, or the three planets are not stationary in their constellations. Could someone please explain to me how this works, lore-wise?

Also, a last slightly unrelated question, is there a reason both orreries resemble dragons?

I never noticed that and I don't believe there is a lore explanation.

To summarize the argument, would you say this is correct?

"The guardian planets are in the same vertical plane, but the star chart doesn't show the the guardian constellations being placed on one line."

It is still possible to assume some stuff about the angle between star chart plane and the guardian plane or try bend the star chart into some funny shape that makes it match. This could be motivated by us not observing the heavens at 90 degrees altitude but roughly at 45 degrees. I don't see that working out though.

So I think you're quite correct.

You could consider the chart as fairly schematic layout rather then an actual map. Much like the tube-maps display distance and connections rather then actual routes. Either that or chalk it up to development.

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As an aside, the constellations themselves are present in the Oblivion sky. I understand it's possible to make them more visible by drawing the lines between them on the texture file. You could perhaps check how they look in Oblivion.

I don't have the graphics card capable of displaying that sort of detail.



That's a short question with a long very long answer. It's a little to late to tell it all.


Basically think Ourbouros. Depending on who is using it, it's either one serpent itself or two eating each other. It's a recurring mythic symbolism on all levels of the myths of Tamriel. It signifies constant change, circular nature, unity of duality. It's particularity well expressed in the Yokudan mythology.

Mundus, the whole construct of the the Eight planets and Nirn was made to symbolically imitate the Aurbis, so it resembles that dragon. Did you read http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml by any chance?

Thanks! And good suggestion about the Oblivion sky, I might do that once my laptop gets back from repairs.

I was guessing it was the Time Dragon, but I didn't know why the Dwemer would include him in their orreries. On second thought it's logical if the Dwemer "religion" resembles other elves' thoughts. In fact, (and I realize I'm going offtopic now) is anything known about the Dwemer day-to-day religious practices and beliefs (the more mundane stuff, not the tonal architecture and Lorkhan's heart)? All I know about that is that they're constantly described as "blasphemous" by the Dunmer, but that could mean anything since the Dunmer hold rather abnormal religious ideas compared with the other races.

In case you're wondering why I'm asking these things, I'm in the Tamriel Rebuilt team and currently trying to complete our script for Kemel-Ze. It involves quite a lot of puzzles, some of them related to astronomy and I want to make sure I don't get the lore wrong. Anyway, thanks again for the answers

It's all the same Dragon.

The Dwemer are not supposed to be understandable. The http://www.imperial-library.info/dwemer/guide.shtml#10 has some talk to that extend. The Dwemer were another rather the other. Not just people who do things differently, but not even people again.

This is a http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/type_of_zero.shtml for example.