Atmora

Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:41 pm

http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/skyrim.shtml says otherwise, have you any source for your what you said?

The propoganda is wrong, no kidding? The origin of the Nedes is a conclusion reached by cobbling together alot of sources filled with implicit hints, listening to dev conversations, and seriously 'no duh' historical anolysis.
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Siobhan Thompson
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:34 pm

946000: Yes, but it wasn't my point, paw-prints wrote "Nedes ain't from Atmora folks" and that's what I was replying to.

edit: paw-prints: so you can give me some links to some sorces.
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kasia
 
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Post » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:30 am

Er, I am paws.
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No Name
 
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Post » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:44 am

Ok you are paws, but you still didn't tell me how you know that they didn't came from Atmora.
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Aaron Clark
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:47 pm

This is the great urban legend of Elder Scrolls, a popular myth, and a shadowy retcon. Almost every major source incorrectly attaches the name 'Nedic' to the proto-Nords of Atmora. This is like Columbus calling the natives 'Indians.' The major sources never go into detail as to how these Nedic peoples arrived and achieved their unlikely spread over the entire continent in peaceful fashion to create unique, independent cultures and dramatic racial differences. Why? Because the sources simply attach "Nedic' to the Atmorans and have done with the issue! It falls apart in the face of examination. I found these clues by two searches on TIL.

Abadal-a
Perrif's original tribe is unknown, but she grew up in Sard, anon Sardarvar Leed, where the Ayleids herded in men from across all the Niben: kothri, nede, al-gemha, men-of-'kreath (though these were later known to be imported from the North), keptu, men-of-ge (who were eventually destroyed when the Flower King Nilichi made great sacrifice to an insect god named [lost]), al-hared, men-of-ket, others; but this was Cyrod, the heart of the imperatum saliache, where men knew no freedom, even to keep family, or choice of name except in secret, and so to their alien masters all of these designations were irrelevant.

There are many kinds of men in old Cyrod, and only those of Falkreath are from the north. Atmora is not the home of mankind. We assume that it is, but the exceptions of the Kothringi and Redguards make it impossible to take it for granted.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/frontier_conquest.shtml
Frontier Conquest and Accommodation dances around the issue, and when read without the false knowledge, it all falls into place.

3rd PGE
There is evidence that early beast men of one variety or another may have been the original inhabitants of High Rock, but the Aldmer coming from Summerset Isle were the first to settle and form permanent communities. The early Nedic people who arrived next were stumbling upon a highly sophisticated culture, and were quickly overwhelmed and absorbed. One of the earliest tales of Khosey describes a Nord raiding party attacking a group of what they presumed to be Aldmer, but who were, on closer inspection, a mongrel race between elf and human, the remnants of the earlier lost Nedic tribe. They were somewhat awkwardly called "Manmeri," but we know them today as Bretons.

So the xenophobic Aldmer formed a hybrid race and a matured culture with a parcel of violent, seal-clubbing immigrants? Not likely. They had been living with mankind for ages, which is why humans are present in their myths.

3rd PGE
The West is respected as Cyrodiil's iron hand: firm, unwavering, and ever-vigilant. The Cyro-Nords that settled it had relinquished the fertile Nibenay Valley long ago, determined to conquer the frontier. Their primitive ferocity was disinclined to magic or the need for industry, preferring bloody engagement and plunder instead. After they had captured the Nedic port-cities of the Strident coast, the Westerners embarked on a mastery of the sea.

The PGE is confused. Nedic people from the north (Nords) captured Nedic sea ports? That is either very bad wording or they captured them from the culturally and racially distinct humans who populated Nibenay, the source of Cyrodiil's strange traditions and cults, tattoos, rice cultivation, ancestor moths, the Alessian theocracy, the Marukhati and battlemage rulers.

An MK post
"Two soldiers hobbled through long grass to get to the lagoon. They carried knives and blowguns and painted faces and a hemprope of varliance beads that they may or may not use. The tallest of the soldiers, who the junglemen called Pellani, carried a staff with bones hanging from it and wet feathers and more the bones were these: one from a black sugarcat which made him invisible to his enemies, four from the neck of a Snow Throat thane whose crimes still largely remain hidden, and of bird legs like clicking moon'd tinsel of no matching pair, and set highest on the staff, like an eye (for it was an eye), the white knuckle of an unborn child. His student beside him was a hoplite called Small Mori, who wore the bull tattoos of his tribe and a nose ring as in the fashion of the Revolution in the northern quarter of Ut Cyrod.

"The lagoon was surrounded by pretty rust-haired girls that all looked alike, grim dark on crush. I remember Gyetai, Pellani said. Small Mori's breed-father once shovel-skulled a Nail-Face for talking [censored] in the rice fields. Just let us take a skiff, one girl said.

"They've been testing this design back east, Small Mori said, and let's all get in. There can always be joy. They rowed in cursive across the water, sinking the bright varliance as they went, reminding the girl that her eyes were stars that didn't know how to swim. Pellani grabbed a ghost and slid his knife vertical down its belly. Inside was a map that no one heeded. No one needed, she said.

"And now the paddles, held straight in the rush that came, made great fins of water on either side of their skiff, and to call it repose was to taste one another. When she finally runs it's never really to get out. The facepaint had been stolen and made by eyelid hands.

"And just as they got to Delodiil the magic ran out. While Small Mori pilfered a stone from an ancient eyelid-wall, the girl hitched a ride back to camp on a crooked bonewagon whose sides were tagged by first generation feather-rebels. Pellani handed his friend something she left behind. And that's what Small Mori will always remember:

"Back at the lagoon and they were dancing and he said, what currency can I offer so you never run away, she had said: you can pay me in moans, brave bull, aad semblio elhno ky'n."

Lastly, I dare you to tell me with a straight face that these guys sound like Nords to you. Alessia was no Snow-Man.
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Bad News Rogers
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:37 pm

Not even Atmorans are from Atmora. The Nords have a history of emigrating from Atmora, yes. But they also have an older tradition saying that:

...men were formed on this mountain [Snow Throat] when the sky breathed onto the land. Hence the Song of Return refers not only to Ysgramor's return to Tamriel after the destruction of Saarthal, but to the Nords' return to what they believe was their original homeland.
PGE 1st Ed

In other words, after the megacontinent got broken up into many continents, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/anuad.shtml, some of the men were struggling to get to their old haunts.

All life began on Tamriel. Using Nords as evidence against that when the lore already states Tamriel was their former homeland is bad reasoning. And if Tamriel was formerly their homeland, it isn't so crazy that for some humans, Tamriel has always been their homeland.
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Robert DeLarosa
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:43 pm

In other words, after the megacontinent got broken up into many continents, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/anuad.shtml, some of the men were struggling to get to their old haunts.

Waaaaah. Warcraft had a mega continent. Lord of the Rings had a mega continent. Earth had a mega continent! Can't we please cry allegory?
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Laura Hicks
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:23 pm

Waaaaah. Warcraft had a mega continent. Lord of the Rings had a mega continent. Earth had a mega continent! Can't we please cry allegory?

I just think it makes sense to explain just why the races were so widely dispersed.
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pinar
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:08 pm

Waaaaah. Warcraft had a mega continent. Lord of the Rings had a mega continent. Earth had a mega continent! Can't we please cry allegory?


Lol.
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LADONA
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:13 pm

Waaaaah. Warcraft had a mega continent. Lord of the Rings had a mega continent. Earth had a mega continent! Can't we please cry allegory?

Don't think of it as a megacontinent; rather, the entire world was land which some areas of water on it. Then, more water sprang up and created continents (where before there were none)... Besides, its the mythic semblance that's important, not the literal state of it...
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Darlene DIllow
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:50 pm

Besides, its the mythic semblance that's important, not the literal state of it...

That's tough to swallow when the conversation is about demographics and cultural groups and migrations.

Edit: But I expect it's like absorbicide: a cop-out until you look at it correctly.
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Dan Scott
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:36 pm

paws: thank for references, although you didn't convince me.
Frontier, Conquest, and Accommodation says the same as PGE: Ysgramor was certainly not the first human settler in Tamriel. In fact, in "fleeing civil war in Atmora", as the Song of Return states, Ysgramor was following a long tradition of migration from Atmora; Tamriel had served as a "safety valve" for Atmora for centuries before Ysgramor's arrival. Malcontents, dissidents, rebels, landless younger sons, all made the difficult crossing from Atmora to the "New World" of Tamriel. New archeological excavations date the earliest human settlements in Hammerfell, High Rock, and Cyrodiil at ME800-1000, centuries earlier than Ysgramor, even assuming that the twelve Nord "kings" prior to Harald were actual historical figures.
I really don't understand why you asking me if the people from MK's quote are Nords? As far as I know they aren't.
Tell me why Anaud called ancestors of men Wandering Ehlnofey if they never left Tamriel?
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Daniel Holgate
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:42 pm

I really don't understand why you asking me if the people from MK's quote are Nords? As far as I know they aren't.
Tell me why Anaud called ancestors of men Wandering Ehlnofey if they never left Tamriel?

1) His point, they were nedes.
2) All life originated from the Ehlnofey.
Over many years, the Ehlnofey of Tamriel became:
- the Mer (Elves),
- the Dwemer (the Deep Ones, sometimes called Dwarves),
- the Chimer (the Changed Ones, who later became the Dunmer),
- the Dunmer (the Dark or Cursed Ones, the Dark Elves),
- the Bosmer (the Green or Forest Ones, the Wood Elves), and
- the Altmer (The Elder or High Ones, the High Elves).

On the other continents, the Wandering Ehlnofey became the Men -- the Nords of Atmora, the Redguards of Yokuda, and the Tsaesci of Akavir.

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lucile
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:23 pm

I hate this board sometimes. If I had only the quote from Totems in Atmoran Tradition.
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BRIANNA
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:12 pm

I hate this board sometimes. If I had only the quote from Totems in Atmoran Tradition.


Coming right up.

Well, not right up, but working on it.

And for the last time (uh huh), Nedes != Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime.
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Floor Punch
 
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Post » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:03 am

Nice.
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Stacy Hope
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:09 pm

Coming right up.

Well, not right up, but working on it.

And for the last time (uh huh), Nedes != Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime.

I doubt that it is "last time" :lol: as long as the "shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime" will be the only thing which says something about the origin of Nedes, people will believe that Nedes came from Atmora. Even TIL timeline says that.
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Racheal Robertson
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:07 pm

It shall stand athwart Marie Antoinette's "Let them eat cake!" and the Morse Code of Samuel Morse and the telephone of Alexander Graham Bell.

And who says it's shoddy scholarship? I call it a historical school of thought founded by Tiber Septim for his political convenience to enlarge the importance of the Nordic race, just like his school of Thu'um.
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vanuza
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:27 pm

Stephen would like to add to the debunking of the Out of Atmora theory, that Topal the Pilot found indigenous beast folk along the Niben. Who else could they be but the Nedes?
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Nina Mccormick
 
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Post » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:25 am

Stephen would like to add to the debunking of the Out of Atmora theory, that Topal the Pilot found indigenous beast folk along the Niben. Who else could they be but the Nedes?

Topal found a lot of things. Most likely (and I hate to admit it, and it makes me really sad), somebody else found both (the in-story) Topal and his creatures for him, probably after a dip into his (the authors) liquid imagination back up. Though, perhaps a dip not deep enough.
And almost no source criticism either.

edit: and by the way, are you stephen?
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Jesus Duran
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:54 pm

edit: and by the way, are you stephen?

No. He is Haplo. I really don't think Sloady would talk about himself in the third person.
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Jade Payton
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:31 pm

No. He is Haplo. I really don't think Sloady would talk about himself in the third person.

Oh. That Stephen ;)
I thought Haplo referred to himself as Stephen, not that it was Sload-Stephen who did the actual typing.

Kinda like the Walter-dude.
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Katey Meyer
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:03 pm

Stephen would like to add to the debunking of the Out of Atmora theory, that Topal the Pilot found indigenous beast folk along the Niben. Who else could they be but the Nedes?


Meh. Considering historical anachronisms described in the Father of the Niben, such as the presence of an inner sea in Morrowind and Orcs in Highrock, the poem might actually be a travelers-fiction.

It's the Walter gal btw.
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Jason Wolf
 
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Post » Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:30 am

Okay, am I right here: Atmora, frozen land bla bla, noone could live there anymore cuz of the cold, they moved south, landed in "Skyrim", were they settled down and they were called Nords, then they moved more to the south, to Cyrodiil, and they were then called Imperials(The ones that settled in Cyrodiil), am I right?
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Justin Hankins
 
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Post » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:42 pm

and they were then called Imperials(The ones that settled in Cyrodiil), am I right?

After they humped ever aboriginal in sight, yes. In Colovia they won the humping match, in Nibenay, they lost.
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Taylrea Teodor
 
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