i seen alot of suggestion for improvements, suggestions for new location, new systems, etc... for both 'FO 4' and 'FO las vegas'.
i want to talk about FO3 atmosphere because i think that FO3 has already all the tools to make an epic game its only a matter of design, so i wounder what was your thought about the atmosphere in FO3

(instead of writing to much i'll try to put some images to show my points as images worth 100 words especially with my awful English)


personally i think the biggest problem with FO3 atmosphere was lack of verity and scale, for exapmle not enough models of ppl,NPC, cloth, cars building , here is what i mean.
all ppl locked basically the same, i would like to see more intresting models like this:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2190/504xsiamesescary.jpg

and more clothing verity, while there was few suits in the game its didnt felt authentic for an post apocliptic world where ppl would take whatever tey would find:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2820/albumpict.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6646/albumpic.jpg


as for settlements few of them had such a great potential, but it always felt unrealistic as there was nothing to suggest they was self sustained, not as trading outposts nor as corp gathering, barhamin growing or raiders communitys
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/738/albumpice.jpg

and as rule the whole environment was done well but felt small, there was no epic feel to it, i already suggested
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5761/albumpicc.jpg

OR here are few concept arts from FO3 i never seen in FO3, well yes i seen the cars and the collapsed highways, but look at the background:
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4935/albumpicj.jpg
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1348/albumpick.jpg

waste... this can only duplicated by going larger scale making smaller scale with multiple locations (like in FO2 or FO3 DLC's) and just make the edges look like that ... its going to be a whole difrent feeling.
its about going in to the post apocalyptic world and knowing there is nothing out there not some crab every 2 meters and new settlement every 20, but stuff like that:

http://fc09.deviantart.com/fs16/i/2007/206/7/a/post_apocalyptic__t_b_f_by_mkIndustrial.jpg
http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/244/3/e/Wasteland_by_DSent.jpg

that are just in the middle of nowhere... and jump to the next location...

I'm sick of all humans having the exact same body

I would like to see more big settlements, there is really only megaton and rivet, the rest, well there is tenpenny, but could be more. Also more side quests.

Lack of clothes combinations is also bad, it should at least allow to combine cloth/armor parts like pants and shoes. And have more mutant and human bodies and styles.

About the scale i dont know trully, i think the place on FO3 is one heavly dense, the capitol after all. I would like it more scaled too, but this is somewhat a mark of beth, smaller landmass with several near landmarks or locations.

to me it wasn't relay about how big they are but about how unrealistic they looked, where is the corps where is the barhamin or the cravans? big locations like Megathon really should have something like the slums etc..
as for the scale, the PIT DLC and the rest of the world its a perfect example for how you can use few locations connected so you can put more effort into creating rich locations rather than trying to fill the area between them in generic crap

Tribal villages is one thing I missed in FO3. I mean more along the lines of Arroyo and Twin Mothers (Van Buren). Since the capital wasteland was described as more harsh and less developed as the west coast (i.e. no government like NCR) one would expect a bigger tribal presence.

Well, I don't think the game would be better by having large towns acting as quest hubs, and I strongly disagree with your assertion that the areas between he towns are crap. I would much rather have them spend their time on expanding the world generally than piling on all of it around a few limited locations, ala FO1/2.

How is there only Megaton and Rivet City? Theres tons of other places, Republic of Dave, Girdershade, Andale, Arefu, Canterbury Commons, Underworld, Big Town, Paradise Falls, and tons of other places. And when you say there are like no Raider settlements, you're wrong, there's Bethesda Ruins and Fairfax Ruins, not to mention the hundreds of camps and buildings that overflow with Raiders.

And who cares if the clothing is only body piece and head piece, theres still tons of selections as long as you get the DLC's, but even without them there's a wide variety. What I'm saying is, if you don't like the game, don't play it. And if you believe there aren't that many settlements or enough clothes, you're obviously new to the game.

well i dont have the DLC's and i did played the game from top to bottom and those are the things that was hurting my gameplay experience...
i understand you have a different experience so instead of attacking my opinion how about you share the low/high points of your experience in regard to game Atmosphere.




i agree, i dont want large towns its FO after all rather just believable settlements, self sustainable etc...
meaning if that a commerce hub show me some caravans outside, ppl should try to get by food dont come by magically and where is everyone else? its cant be half of the population are guards etc...

beside i agree on the 'piling up' i recently played STALKER (which is an a post apocalyptic FPS) the thing i remember most (in regard to atmosphere) that it had feeling of space and while they dont feture an open world and their maps just 2sqkm but it feels huge each warehouse is the size of megaton.
plus the environment reacts to you, unlike FO3 i noticed the weather there when it was stormy, when there was radiation pocket you really need to go your tip toes, etc..

http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/761/761625/stalker-shadow-of-chernobyl-20070205044935880.jpg
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/773/773803/stalker-shadow-of-chernobyl-20070319001037721.jpg
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/769/769594/stalker-shadow-of-chernobyl-20070301074216740.jpg
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/767/767063/stalker-shadow-of-chernobyl-20070222053919801.jpg
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/748/748256/stalker-shadow-of-chernobyl-20061130040017217.jpg

beside the weather and the more dangerous radiation, its somethings you cannot reproduce on such small scale, this is why i support separate locations

STALKER isn't post-apocalyptic.. That takes place in Chernobyl. And I didn't attack you, I stated my opinion in a way that people would easily find offensive.

Regardless of how big the towns are in any future Fallout games, I would like to see more of a depiction of their inter-connectedness. Is one town a sort of trade hub that grew out of servicing the caravans that always passed through there? Then I'd like to see that visually depicted. And then what are these trade caravans buying and selling from each town? That's actually really important, I think. The existence of a trade route at all sort of implies that there's some specialization between the towns - that one can offer something that the others don't, or is to be bought cheaper from that town than another. That's the whole purpose of a trade route, it drives the trade.

A simple example would be a trade route between one settlement that is based on agriculture, which supplies the feed used by the ranchers in another settlement. And both of those supply the food for another town that is based on scavenging useful materials in needed for both of those towns.

It's not exactly something I spend a lot of time brooding over when I'm playing Fallout 3. But I think more of an emphasis on that connection between towns would be a good way to make the next game better, even if it's lack of that in Fallout 3 isn't such a terrible thing. (Going from "good enough," to "better," in other words. Rather than saying "this is lame; and this is needed to fix it.")

I understand this argument, but frankly, it just doesn't rank very high on my list of important things.

To be honest, it's not at the top of my list, either. But I still think it would be nice. Probably not that much work, either. At some point in game design you're looking at a blank slate and have to decide what towns you're going to have there, where they're going to be, what they look like, what makes them unique, etc. I don't think it would be too much to ask that this be one of their considerations, either.

Coming from an art background, I think that could even be a useful tool for trying to think of unique settlements and ways in which they could stand apart from each other. They sort of design themselves. Going from the 3-town example - I can already envision an old farmstead that's been heavily fortified; and even some ideas for some quests that could tie into that (like ridding them of the obvious Raider menace, etc.) And a large ranch area (where the Radscorpions and the Brahmin play...) And then your usual ad-hoc town on the outskirts of a ruined city that makes it's living searching the rubble for useful stuff. Heck, even a fourth town that's more focused on building useful stuff out of all that material (some sort of post-apocalyptic harvester could be very useful to an agricultural town - and it could even be a quest trying to safely get it to it's destination.)

It always a good idea to have a unified concept for anything you're doing - whether it be a game, or another work of art.

i actually think its an great idea, Caravan is already implemented in game but they are more like mobile repair & store for you than the only source of basic necessities in the waste.
this exactly my problem during my gameplay i dont recall that deep feeling of desperation of need, ppl struggling to survive

i blame over crowding because it was actually packed of many many little "gems" and good location (i loved few of the vaults) that if this was one of the original FO location based setting i would say awesome but this game features an open world scenario
so stuff like cannibalist raiders gets only really? because just over the hill there was a full barhamin herd and caravn route and settlement over the next where most town folks spend their time in the diner... so why? or like the radio broadcast of he family calling for help you found starved, again really? there is settlement visible from the hill...

many locations like megaton feels like someone photoshoped them using the scale tool way to much on the outside also how is it aslo megaton suppose to be attacked by raiders but i never seen that happen also if this is suppose to be a commercial hub where is all the caravans or any food source? everywhere its looks like ppl more busy spending time doing everything but getting basic supplies.

etc...

I would have liked to see the caravans on a schedule, where they gear up and set out for the next town (hiring guards as needed, and typically being three to ten merchants and their entourage of pack Brahmen and mercs). Given that the wasteland is teeming with hostile wildlife (and feral humans), one would expect them to only venture out of town with a small army leading the way (and trailing behind).

Just a thought, pertaining to the atmosphere of the game:

I'd like to see some more focus on really driving home just how desperate life is. Leaving Vault 101 for the first time was very enjoyable, for me. I loved that first look at the devestation of the world, thought it was very well done. And one of the first things you're likely to encounter is a group of Raiders inhabiting an abaonded School. But you can always go further, I think. Megaton, for example, is a pretty idyllic settlement, relatively-speaking. They're doing alright for themselves, all things considered.

I was just thinking, though, of how much more of an impact it would have if the first town you got to was on it's last legs and in a much more desperate position. Like if you walked into a town and their water purifier was broken and everyone was dying of radiation poisoning. Actually, that's the situation in Megaton when you first arrive, ostensibly. But I think it would be effective to see this with a stronger visual representation - dead bodies in the street, lots of wasted-looking sickly people, etc. If that's the first thing you see is this near-ghost-town settlement; then I think it would really drive the devestation home.

I mean, that is the whole point of the Fallout aesthetic, is the contrast. You'd be hard-pressed to find a greater constrast between an idyllic World of Tomorrow and it's shattered remains, I think. Stepping out the Vault for the first time, where everything is relatively clean and life is easy - anything you can do to drive the point home that you're not in Kansas anymore is going to be effective.

(And again - to me this isn't about "this was broke in Fallout 3 and this is how to fix it." I'm just thinking of things I think would make it "better". Bethesda had a very talented art team in Fallout 3 - I'm probably even more of a fan of those guys than anyone else who worked on the game - I think they could pull this off.)

Fallout also had a few credibility issues. It's amazing how many packs of giant rats and radscorpions can be found in the wilderness which is strange and considering that it's all desert everywhere and there's no source foods to feed those huge animals. Also Bramin have to drink water like people and eat something. Growing vegetation also needs a lot of water. Yet in Fallout it seams there's just enough water for people to survive. The more you think about the game setting and know the game the more issues and possible inconsistencies you will find. It's the same with every other crpg.

Well, we all know that there are project budgets. This who argument is akin to everyone wanting more cops on the street. Who can argue with that, until it's time to pay for it. Sure, I'd like to see a more realistic economy, etc, but as I have stated many times over the last several years, I'd RATHER have a larger world, more quests, more ways to solve quests, more dialogue, more weapons and gear, more NPCs, and several other things. Finite budget means that everything you do is at the cost of something else. Atmosphere in FO3 is already better than most other games. It's serviceable, and in some instances, brilliant (PL). It's good enough that we should probably leave it and focus on something else.

I don't think a fully-functioning economic model is really needed, but I don't think it would be that much trouble to "fake" some of the "realism." Crops and water and brahmin, etc - that's just models, after all. If you can model some trees and foliage, you can model a field of crops. That's not a resources or budget consideration - that's about how you want the world to look. It wouldn't have taken any more budget or resources to put a farming village into the game than any other town. Same thing with a ranch with some brahmin in it - you already have the models for fences and brahmin. And you already have to model the area that it's going into, anyway.

And something like having certain items only available (or cheaper to come by) in certain areas depending on that town's "specialty" is hardly a new concept. That's a concept as old as videogame RPGs, I also don't think that's going to be much of a budgetary concern.

But again - as far as creating more viable-seeming towns with an interconnection between them: you have to make that town anyway. What it looks like has less to do with the budget than the thought you've put into defining that town's characteristc "look." What's going to set it apart from every other place on the map. Republic of Dave could just as easily have been a farming town as anything else.

after the first trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd-LPHZcLNQ
of rage came out long ago, it was still during the development of FO3 and i remember saying wow that exactly how i would like FO to look like (minus the car racing) but we got east cast non desert and ,,,,,, FO3.


but with their newest trailer they just F***ING pooring salt on and stick it to me:
http://kotaku.com/5321732/new-rage-trailer-ornery

Rage in the magazine looks very good. Then again, graphics are only part (generally a small part in RPGs) of the experience.

i am not speaking about the gameplay just about the graphics and its artistic design and what i see is exactly how imagined FO3 to be...
i just been to their site too www.aftertheimpact.com its like designed by FO lore just better *sigh*

Well, you will ahve your chance to play Rage. I'll continue to argue that fO3 graphics are servicable, and I'd rather have resources spent of improving the roleplay elements of the game.

Hopefully, with ID now in the Zenimax fold, Beth can focus a bit more on creating better roleplaying games.

Yeah, we're already going to have Rage; and it looks like a cool post-apocalyptic game. (id's technology always impresses me, though - the big thing they're really stressing about their newest engine here is that it - hypothetically - is going to really cut down on the artist's constraints when making a game.) Having Fallout 3 look like Rage - wouldn't that be kind of redundant? You already have the one IP - what would be the point of having another that would look just like it?

And yeah, I think that was a really good move Zenimax buying out id. Bethesda making use of id's level of technology had the potential to go a long way...

its not about making FO look like RAGE, its about RAGE looking exactly how FO3 was suppose to look like in the first place.

I don't see that, to be honest. They're both very different aesthetically and share very different art direction. Looking at the concept art for FO3, FO3 looks pretty much exactly like it was supposed to. Rage is shaping up to be exactly like Rage is supposed to.

Now that Zenimax has id, I'd be suprised if Fallout 4 didn't make use of their new engine (that is what id does best after all - they're very good with technology.) It's going to look prettier than Fallout 4, but it's still going to look very differerent visually from Rage.

I don't get why everything that's even remotely post-apocalyptic, people have to try to connect it to Fallout...