I really hope the class system is going to be tweaked. As an idealist, there were quite a few issues with Oblivion's class system (maybe morrowind's, too, i dont remember) that really bothered me. I don't know if these suggestions have been posted here previously (i just joined these boards today) or if that Bethesda has released any information about these specific issues. First and foremost is the Endurance issue.

Oblivion's basic endurance system is as follows: You character gains 2 maximum health for every point of endurance gained, and upon levelling, an additional 10% of base endurance the character had at that level is added. A per-level bonus is not applied retroactively to all the characters previous levels. That being said, the best way to maximize total endgame health would be to rush to 100 endurance as early as possible by getting +5 endurance at every level, in order to get another 10 health for every level thereafter. Being that every race is effectively the same at endgame (aside from race-specific abilities, some of which are relatively insignificant), each with potentially 100 in every skill and attribute, races like Nord, Redguard, and Orcs, whom start with the highest endurance values of any race, had a significant advantage in this regard. Characters with the Warrior Birthsign had a similar advantage. I know the difference is negligible, but like i said, i'm an idealist.

Now im certainly not about to say that all races and birthsigns should be equalized in terms of endurance, and as a matter of fact, i like the aspect of customization that they afford. The way i see it, bethesda has two ways of fixing this:

1.) Make endurance per-level health bonuses apply retroactively. Instead of incrementing the character's base health by 10% of endurance every level, simply reset the character's base health to endurance * 2.1 at each level after they pick their attribute gains. Or, for that matter, eliminate the percentagewise health gain factor entirely, since under this system it would become less significant.

2.) Alternatively, leave the endurance system the way it is, and modify all other attributes to give a percentagewise bonus at each level in a similar fashion. Attributes like Intelligence would be easy (simply use the same exact formula surrently used for health). Willpower could get a per-level magicka regen bonus (or actually implement the magicka resistance aspect this time, and apply a per-level bonus to that. I've never seen evidence of such a feature actually existing, contrary to the attribute's tooltip in Oblivion). Stuff like strength/agility would be tricky. A separate statistic would have to be implemented that plays a role in weapon damage, and a per-level bonus would have to be applied to those new stats.

The first option was the first thing i came up with, but i think the second one, while more complicated, is better since it adds an additional aspect of customization into the game.

Here is my second issue: level capping. I know that level-capping in the elder scrolls series has been relatively insignificant and definitely not required to beat the game (at least in Oblivion or Morrowind, for that matter. I've not played the previous games).

In Oblivion, there is no hard level cap, but your maximum potential level was limited to a quantity equivalent to 10% of your total potential major skill increases, plus one, rounded down. As such, those characters that didn't pick major skills that were featured in their class specialization and racial bonuses could reach higher levels than those characters that did. Now it's hard to say that characters built in this way necessarily had an advantage, being that everything in the game impacting its difficulty is relative to the players level, but again, idealist here.

It's a little trickier to fix this issue, but i came up with an interesting idea that would both fix this and make the whole skill system a little better indirectly. Make all racial/class specialization/major skill bonuses increase the maximum levels of those skills by an amount equivalent to the value they increase the skill by in the first place. This would effectively set the maximum potential skill gains of all character configurations to 525. Another interesting feature could then be implemented: another skill perk at level 125. These perks would only be available to players that not only picked those skills as major ones, but also receive a bonus to them through class specialization or race.

That's what I've got so far. Feedback is welcomed, and I know I'm not the only person that was ever bothered by these things.

Attributes are far from confirmed.

There will be no classes in Skyrim (Unless you already knew that.)

As for leveling, Todd says you will get Some HP every level, and then you can chose to either have more stamina, magicka, or HP

Are you suggesting that the player be able to just re-assign all their skills at any time? If so, then I have to say no. Abilities/skills/specializations/perks, etc. should have meaning and be carefully chosen.

in that case, disregard my entire post!



im not sure how you got that impression, but no, not at all.

you should definitely do some reading

If that is the case, I fear they got rid of stats. I don't know if I'll like that.

Cool. My bad then.

You mean attributes or stats as in "horses stolen" and "creatures killed"?

They neither confirm nor deny stats, but Im pretty sure they will still be in. It's a core mechanic after all.

I'm glad they've fixed the Endurance/Attribute based health amounts.

I actually would like a simplified Attribute free game without any efficient levelling nonsense.

Attributes. I mean, if when I level up I can directly modify health, magicka and stamina, what's the sense of having endurance, intelligence and, say willpower? But if attributes are still there, what's the point in being able to raise health, magicka and stamina directly?

Besides, how do you control encumbrance without having a Str stat? And magic resistance? Probably Speed is completely replaced by Athletics?

I think the Stamina stat is going to be very important. For example, as a warrior you need to be able to swing your two handed axe more than twice to be effective. And having high athletics won't be much use if you can only sprint a very small distance

Maybe encumbrance will be done through a perk, or maybe it's just a product of your stamina and your skill in one handed/two handed weapons. Also magic resistance was not calculated from attributes in oblivion.

Don't remember about OB, but in MW mag res was based on Willpower. I think Attributes are essential for a good amount of things. Using perks as substitute for Attributes don't seem a good idea for me. However we have yet to see how they'll implement all of this, if attributes are gone.

if attributes are out and you only choose mana, health and stamina, you could end up with mages with higher health than warriors even if they dont do anything physically strenuous or fighters with higher mana than mages despite not using any magic at all.

i liked the modded oblivion way better that had mana, health and stamina based off attributes and attributes based off skill use (not the whole micromanage skills aiming for the +5 multiplier disaster)

Yes you could, and is that a problem somehow? It seems you are trying to apply some kind of "it wouldn't be very realistic" argument here along the lines of "if wouldn't be very realistic to have a mage with high health and low magicka". To that I'd like to ask you what does high or low health means in real life and which activity would increase your "health", and then why wouldn't some mage type magic schools be able to "train" your health

not using the "realistic" argument at all. But TES games use the "increasing skills thru practice" system as opposed to "assign skill points". which means you only increase combat/magic/stealth skills if you actually engage in combat/magic/stealth. you get a character skilled in combat/magic/stealth by having that character that engages in combat/magic/stealth.

the same applies to health/mana/stamina. In the traditional TES system, you get a character with higher mana or stamina by using skills that consume mana or stamina, i.e. caster or athlete/acrobat/etc. you cant normally get a melee fighter with high mana if he never casts a spell. without attributes, however, it seems you can.

again, i didnt and am not using the "realistic" argument. but regarding your own reference to real life, you get high stamina by exercising like jogging. you wont get it by sitting around playing video games all day. by just selecting mana/health/stamina, you can.

In Arena and in Daggerfall, you increase your attributes freely at level up, in Morrowind and Oblivion the increases depend on the skills you used. It's a 50/50 split for attribute increase by player choice vs increase by player use of dependent skills in TES history. Skyrim can choose whichever it wants and still be using a "traditional" TES system.


You are talking about getting high stamina in real life but I choose the health stat on purpose because it's one of the big VERY tricky stats to get working in a "realistic" way. Which means that if you don't care for realism, you can make your game Health stat work anyway you want and whichever makes more sense for gameplay

That was quite annoying. Going out of your way to "tag" skills you weren't actually going to be using during regular play, and keeping track of skill gains constantly on a notepad, just to make sure your attributes didn't suffer.... very silly.


Which is why I'm reserving judgement on the whole "no attributes" concept. Hopefully, it'll be better than the previous system.

Ok folks its simple. There are no atributes this time. We know there is no agility as todd said so and there is nothing for intel to do now as magicka is picked directly on level up. There is nothing for endurance to do now as hps and stamina are also picked on level up.. on level up you gain x hps and then can pick from more hps stamina or magicka..

There is quite simply nothing l;eft for most atributes to do. And they got in the way in mw and ob...

As for magic resistence.. thats likely race based. or perk based or both.

There is nothing atriubutes did that race and perks cant do better.

I would like too see a link on that. I haven't heard anything about attributs being removed.

If you look over the todd interviedws where he talks about athletics being removed he also talks about there being no agility to raise and the way he says it sounds like there are no atributes.. Plus again as I said with the way leveling up works now alot of what atributes did is taken up directly on level up.

Oh and carry weight... likely race based. and perk based.. id expect mercantile perks cover carry cap...

Did you ever consider eliminating "levels" all together?
What do levels do anyways?

• If Attributes are in:
  
• Allow you to say "My character is better than yours because I have 2 more levels"
  
• + hp
  
• + attributes (based on skills gains also)
  
• Scaling -- harder enemies, better loot
  
• help differentiate between weak / strong characters.

If attributes are not in:
only difference is you get to pick +MP or +FP (How is this developing your character by doing rather than assigning? => more like DnD / generic RPGs IMO.)

If levels are out:

• You can brag about how cool your character is instead of how big his ... numbers... are.
  
• HP changes less (say End + 100). Because a muscle bound weightlifter is only marginally harder to kill than a squishy accountant if you stab them.
  No arrow infested porcupines. Combat is more arcade and less slash until his hp is finally gone.No managing +5s on level up.
  
• attribute gains (if they're in) can be determined by skill gains (basically the same as OB + MW, but you "choose by doing rather than assigning"
  
• scaling can be delegated to skills (skill averages, if Radient AI works like they say there will be a lot to play with)
  
• Strong characters should LOOK strong. (muscular people have muscles, squishies don't.) In OB you knew everyone's level because they were the same as yours. In MW you could guess at a person's level by equip / location, but never knew if that homeless man was a skilled martial artist monk. This was the most interesting IMO and no one has complained about it missing.

Sound like bad decisions by the player...if they are using lots of spells they would want to increase their magicka. If they don't have much magicka, they would have to rely on their other skills.

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