I was actually thinking Fallout style attributes would help in Skyrim. Only problem is people would start bashing them for just pasting Fallout onto Elder Scrolls, so I at least admire them for trying something different from both.

Id take Fallout style over "lets appeal to newbs". Attributes worked in Fallout, the level scaling, or lack thereof worked in Fallout. If it works, use it. I'd rather have "Oh no its Fallout." opposed to "Oh no its Fable."

I don't know how I feel about it. But I'm not going to bash it, and call it a mistake, when we have no flipping idea how it works. Who knows? Maybe the system is much better. Maybe it's much worse. Maybe both systems together would have worked better. Perhaps attributes need to be completely rethought, or maybe Beth was right, and they can just be scrapped. Maybe perks will make it up, maybe they won't. The point is, we don't know. I'd rather not have an Oblivion reboot though, and that's definitely not what Skyrim is. So I'm happy enough with development so far I want a unique game, not the same game over and over again.

This. there is too much complaining going on. People can make elaborate back stories and names that fit the culture but make a fuss when qualities that were distinguished by numbers is axed. Keep using your imagination. It is still role-playing. I, for one, welcome the new system. It might be different but so what. Yea I was surprised Bethesda took a different route but in the end they know more about making video games than I do.

Agree. I'd prefer TES style attributes over Fallout but Fallout style would be better than nothing which is what we're getting now. I dont get the argument that developers shouldnt do some things like theyve been done in other games. If the aspect of game X works for game Y then do it.

your starting set was never any unique really, your character's true colors shine trough later on. that's how it always worked.

And starting out with maxed out strength is "more interesting" than achieving the same? Really?

I dont know what was so "deep" in the "old" system that cannot be found in the new one. Again, you couldn't set your strenghts and weaknesses this way, that was purely by race, and you could easily get over those in a few levelups. It is the same as different starting skills, your weakness were always the skills you did not raise, like a warrior who cannot lockpick, or a mage who specialized on destruction, but cannot use conjuration.

As for how skills are not "natural abilities" and how you could make "skilled, yet weak characters" are purely semantics.
What decides which number is which, what is natural, what is due to training, especially if both are raised nearly the same way?

No, static attributes wouldn't help, it would be even more limiting, it would take away the reason how your skills were raised.

Overall, it worked for Witcher...
With twice as much choices, I would hardly say it would be "too simplistic".

Ok an rpg is not defined by just stats. You play a role for goodness sakes. Your role is defined by how you treat other people, what you wear, how you fight, how you go about completing quests and pretty much anything and everything! I get what MegaMandis is saying; the attribute system seems unnecessary. People are arguing it's not about necessity, but about depth. Well, there's depth and uniqueness created by the new system, and that's what it is a system: It's just a new way of defining your role. The system is: the areas in which you'll get an improvement of stats are the areas which you choose to do/use. With that use comes perks which further adds to the uniqueness of your character. This to me seems more natural and logical compared to the old system.

The people in favor of attributes basically have it set in their minds that there can be no other system, and are probably afraid of what this new system will do to their rp experience. yes change can be scary, but doesn't mean it's not for the best. The only part I agree on about the attribute system adding to your role is the ability to define your character at the start of the game...give him/her a certain set of attributes that will show what kind of person he/she is before the game starts (to show a backstory of the character).

I honestly thought that was the logical next step. Turn attributes into 1-10 scale, "simplifying it, by square routing it". We lose 90 variables, but Id take that over just not having them. Attributes, skills and perks are not mutually exclusive and make a deeper game.

Who cares if the new system's set in stone. That doesn't mean we can't still express our opinions/hopes/wants. It's all about (except for thorough complainers) bouncing ideas off people and creating new opinions of your own, because somebody said something very interesting, etc, etc.

Those are all statistics though. Stats aren't just numbers, they are all variables. Which in turn, are all numbers, since numbers make up our world and obviously would have to make up any artificially created world as well.

Of course its not only defined by stats but without those its hardly an rpg. If you had no skills, attributes, perks, three bars or any similar thing to define your character and everything is about player skill you wouldnt call it an rpg. Other genres can have character interaction and choices but that doesnt make them rpgs. I also agree with Xarnac above my post.

There will be some depth and uniqueness to the new system but there is no way it would match that of attributes. It does let us define us a bit but no way as much as attributes would. Perks help the situation a bit but not enough. Why not have attributes and perks? Best of both. I have nothing against the new leveling system though where all skills affect your leveling but the ones you use the most affect it the most. Its better than major and minor skills which had big flaws.

I'm not "stuck in the past". I oppose bad change. I have nothing against change but when its bad I will oppose it. If its good I support it. Removal of attributes is bad change whereas the new leveling system is good.

I know there has to be stats...heck I'd be livid if they just up and removed all the numbers. I was just responding to all the attention given to the numbers as having the only impact on our roleplaying experience...no one mentioned the other roleplay elements.
I know saying everyone's stuck in the past is a big generalization and get your point about bad change. I just personally think that this new change is better than the old system, it seeming more realistic/organic. Also, with the removal of some skills, I can see how taking out the attributes associated with them is a logical choice.

There won't be much complexity to the system. It is pretty much a completely bastardized and diluted rehash of the attribute system. All of the modifiers are there hidden behind the perks... most of wich will be uninspired.... much like the rest of skyrim from a core gameplay standpoint. I wasn't a fan of the old attribute system but this one pretty much svcks too. And to answer your encumbrance question it will be determined by how much stamina you have acquired.

I dont understand why they have to hide them. I want to see them if they are still there. I dont care about some newbs broken "imushun" because he has to look at a menu. If you dont want to look at a menu, play an action game.

Those days are gone. There has been way to much focus on menus being generated to appeal to the general masses all in the attempt to garner more sales. The new menu system is built for controllers. I enjoy using the contoller on PC as well but I wonder how much more content could be present or more cleverly built gameplay conscepts implemented if not wasted on these features.

Agility
Affects your total Fatigue, damage dealt by ranged weapons, and your steadiness in combat.
Endurance
Affects your total Fatigue as well as your starting health and your health gain upon leveling up.
Intelligence
Affects your total magicka.
Luck
Affects everything you do in a small way.
Personality
Affects your ability to gain information and better prices from NPCs.
Speed
Affects how fast you move.
Strength
Affects your total encumbrance, your total Fatigue and the damage done by melee attacks.
Willpower
Affects the rate at which magicka regenerates as well as your total Fatigue.

Luck and personality are gone, but they weren't significant and can be distributed elsewhere easily, and are not needed as something major.

Speed can be combined into Stamina.

If you don't see how a lot of these other ones trickle down into three basic concepts then I can't help you. What is left behind after the combination of REDUNDANCIES(yes, things ALL DOING THE SAME THING, as different as you think they might be, they aren't. Just more digits added onto a math problem that could easily be simplified to allow for more things in the game.)...digression, excuse me, what is left behind after the combination of these attributes effects(damage modifiers) will be nicely scaled in your skill levels, something that they already did.

Thinking of it naturally, you swing with 1 handed weapons a lot, your 1 arm gets strong, not you all around. That would be Health. So the damage bonus from the skill works, same with 2 handed. Same for magic skills and everything else. The perks will not just be to supplement what you consider a loss of an "attribute". It's just a different way of arranging things so that you have a more natural progression. Less of you dealing with the numbers and more of the computer doing what you were going to to do for you.

I get the depth you think you are having with "attributes", but it's just re-arranged. As opposed to putting a point into strength, you put a point into "combat(strength) perk". ITS NOT THAT DIFFERENT it's just the road that leads you there and the names for it are different. It's not anymore or less clunky than it was before. It's just the road to get those little numbers on your imaginary paper are more smoothly done.

It's not player skill, it's the same thing as it has always been, just in a new shiny package. All your "STATS" are there. Are you catching onto my use of quotations? It's all just NAMES, the numbers are still there, and the math still adds up in balance, it's just the equations have steps shaved off of them to allow the game to run nice and smooth. Catch my drift?

I like them nice and simple

less head aches for me

and I played Gothic 1 2 3 so don't tell me I don't know how to RPG whatever, and Gothic had few attributes and lots of skills and spells it was awesome

AND BTW

we can now have like a massive mana pool if we want although stamina and health will be fubard

yes, we get it, you dont know the meaning of redundancy. Just becasue they are connected/related, does not make them redundant. They are two totally separate variables that effect overarching mechanics. plus you didnt describe the difference between personality and speechcraft, and Luck, its use, and the ability to create a character around that attribute.

How the Glorious hell is the game supposed to differentiate between Stamina for encumbrence, Stamina for speed, Stamina for Endurance, and Stamina for how long you can Sprint

Same for Health in Strength, Endurance again, Resistances?

and so on and so fourth?


Its pretty straight forward what HMS do in Skyrim ok? Todd was all of clear about that in Jan, the "trickle down" for SKILLS when Attributes sole function wasnt just for SKILLS stop romantisizing it, your "best bet" isn't in its not there. scrap this debate its been done to death

one side is saying do it differently the other is saying why, the other side is saying why and the next is saying boo go back to 1996 the inclusion of attributes isnt killing anything and you have what you desire so WHY is having attributes a bad thing.

I think the issue with removing attributes is that you remove the NUMBERS!! "What now?? I can't show off my massive NUMBERS anymore?". Look at World of Warcraft...like the bloke from Zero Punctuation says, it's all about NUMBERS and how to get better NUMBERS so you can beat all the other NUMBERS.

Attributes did have a function, it made people go "Oh look my strength has increased, my character is getting stronger"...see THAT is simple. Stop calling the system in Skyrim simplified or dumbed down or what not...it's just DIFFERENT.

Why are people so obsessed with NUMBERS? Instead of having two separate NUMBERS for Magicka, being intelligence and magicka it self...we now only have magicka, simpler? Yeah sure. Dumb? What? "Now here's a bucket, to fill it with water you'll have to take another bucket, lower it into the well and then pour the water from one bucket to the other", "Sure, but what if we just lowered the initial bucket into the well?" "Don't be silly, that's too simple...dumb even".

Same thing with other attributes...let's take agility for instance, a NUMBER that didn't just effect other NUMBERS.
Now agility made for better sneaking, amongst other things. In the old system you had a NUMBER, being agility that helped you raise another NUMBER, being sneak. Then, when you reached a certain NUMBER in sneak you got something a bit like a "perk". For instance the weight of your boots no longer affect how well you sneak. With the new system you can go into sneak and say "now what do I want to be good at...running while sneaking? Maybe better critical hits when I'm sneaking?" You can actually tailor you character in much greater detail than with the old system.

And yes, I know that the back-bone of old-school RPG is NUMBERS!! But why? Isn't it a lot more fun to spend time on the actual role-playing, than thinking about NUMBERS all the time? Isn't THAT what RPGs are truly about? Otherwise it should be called NPG...
The magic thing about computers is that they can do all the dull math for you and you can then concentrate on slaying dragons and rescuing damsels in distress :toughninja:

Now all you doubters, go play some D&D or some other dice-roll RPG and let us have a world of less NUMBERS and more joy!

I don't know, how did they differentiate the many uses of Fatigue before?

And if you look for all the attributes in those 3, you're doing it wrong.

Yeah, attributes haven't only done skills, they also did health, magicka, stamina and speed.

I wonder if there are something we can control these...

Numbers make up our world, numbers would obviously make up any artificial game world as well. Fact is, numbers are RPGs. What they actually represent seems to be where certain people stop comprehending. dont like stats and representation? Go play an action game.

Weapon damage? Numbers

Health? numbers

Stamina? numbers

Magicka? numbers

Skills? numbers

Perks? percentage increases numbers

levels? Numbers

Dungeon Hierarchy? Numbers

The game? Numbers

your Computer? Numbers

Your age? Numbers

amount of breaths taken to ensure your still alive? Numbers

what the hell do you expect...



ah let me guess Bukee, I'll find speed, personality, agility, endurance intelligence etc etc ad nausem in the Skills right? so reaching 90 in Heavy Armor is going to increase my jump height or make me run faster?

re·dun·dant/ri?d?nd?nt/Adjective
1. No longer needed or useful; superfluous.
2. (of words or data) Able to be omitted without loss of meaning or function.
3. characterized by verbosity or unnecessary repetition in expressing ideas; prolix: a redundant style.
4. being in excess; exceeding what is usual or natural: a redundant part.
5. having some unusual or extra part or feature.
I post this because obviously YOU don't know the definition of redundant.

They can be removed because the function of what they did is not lost, as it was in multiple "attributes". Yes, the equations derived from each of them varied, but the overall function of what they did was the same, and was not NEEDED. When you combine those REDUNDANCIES, the things left behind(damage modifiers, etc.) you realize that the things that can't also be included in the 3 major attributes can be placed into skills. I know the definition. You just saying I don't without any backing is simply stupid and doesn't give your argument any ground. They are not seperate. Sure, the names are, but the functions that they actually served were not.

Personality=makes you more personable. CHARISMA. governs skills of speechcraft and mercantile. in other words, doesn't NEED to be it's own major attribute. Anything that the ATTRIBUTE would give you can be given through the skill.

Luck-puts a little bit of something in everything, also is LUCK. does this need to be explained? I already stated that I wasn't too happy about this being gone, if you actually read and understood anything that I say as opposed to retorting with snarky comments and an elitist attitude that holds no actual claim to intellect or constructive meaning.

How about stop being a fetcher and actually construct an argument with actual points as opposed to just being insulting?

Yeah, you dont know the meaning of redundant. The function is lost. If I have the same blade skill as you, strength would be the 'tie breaker', thats the exact opposite of redundant. Since when was there a charisma skill? Since when was there a luck skill? Since when was there a strength skill? Try again.