After morrowind bethesda has done away with the dice roll system on pretty much everything and then attributes became dead weight. I'm not trying to argue that having numbers is better for an rpg because that would be dumb of me, that is pure preference. But what no one can really deny is that the system was so redundant and convoluted in oblivion. They could of improved it or outright removed it, either way is an improvement.

Also why does everyone think there are strict guidelines to game genres? RPG is the most open game genre for video games and trying to put limitations on it is laughable and I'm glad people with this mindset aren't designing games. I like my games fresh and I always look forward to a new system over a stagnant one.

Also stop talking about stats being gone because they are very much there. Skills are still in and most of what attributes did skills already did.

This is the misconception. The only problem with OB was level scaling. When I talk about numbers and stats, Im not talking dice rolls. Im talking every variable in the game. I never said stats were gone, don't know where you got that from.

See the thing is, its not even about being right or winning an Argument, there is nothing to be "won" in this debate, what is annoying how ever is gaping holes exist in this Logic adopted by Todd, and people are trying to fill it in with statements that have no substance like, its in the back ground or skills do what Attributes did and all this flak of Garbage

now if people would realize Skills do for themselves what Attributes did for them -then- they would be correct. but I face palm at the amount of times people keep saying how Stamina would increase speed or raise jump height or do all these things, when its clearly, Flatly stated they are just 3 bars health for heath, Magicka for magika and Stamina for Stamina, not health effects A B C etc etc

and lets not even get on the speed and jump hieght mess because that was glazed over with a PR sentence about how armor effects running speed, no fing Duh, thats not what was asked but thanks.

Please, continue to convince me you have the slightest modicum of intelligence.

It's not blade skill stupid, it's 1h or 2h. if our skill in 1h or 2h is the same, then our SKILL IS THE SAME. the tie breaker would be in our health and stamina. Please try and use more of your imagination.

I didn't say there was a charmisma skill, I basically said Personality=charisma. Learn 2 english. When I said whatever the attribute gives can be "given through the skill" I meant the two skills this would effect(speechcraft and mercantile) would be perfectly able of determining this attribute themselves. It doesn't need to be displayed or have points put into it.

also didn't say there was a luck skill.

Also didn't say there was a strength skill.

I think I'm gonna stop replying to your posts. You obviously lack the ability to read and comprehend words, not trying to be mean but it's what you've done with everything you've replied to.

What the! Yes you could! You could muck about with racial bonuses and gender and so on.

You could make a wood elf with strength 30, 35, 40 or 45

You could make a Nord with strength 50, 55, 60, 65

Seeing as the base value was 40, that means that you could make a character with unusually high strength (65), or low strength (30)

Blade/1 hand, same difference, its a skill, strength is an attribute (plus I was talking about Oblivion). They did not do the same thing. When you keep spouting fallacies, you sound like you have no idea what your talking about. Which you apparently dont. Name calling? I'll take that as an admitted defeat. Again, know what attributes did.

Yes, that's what they do...

Also now stamina raises encumbered and indirectly, speed by allowing you to sprint farther (there might be perks for this though).
That's it really...

So what's the problem?

Bingo. Fewer really impressive perks, as some of these will now be used as stand ins for what the attributes used to offer AND, more severely limited character builds because abilities that used to be more readily and reasonably attained, or at least attainable in conjucntion with other skills and abilities, will now only be available on a limited basis and at a high cost (i.e. if you want to be athletic or acrobatic, you will have to give up some of your blade proficencey or spell perks to do it et.) On the whole, this isn't a favour to anyone, except for people who are in love with boundaries and restrictions for the sake of imposed specificity.

Without the random variables that come with attributes why even keep them in. Fatigue is the best argument I've seen about attributes but the thing about fatigue is that every class type got obscene amounts of it. The change to leveling up the 3 bars is actually a good thing for role playing and character differentiation because now if someone wants low fatigue they can have it without ignoring one of their main stats and utterly gimping them.

Other than fatigue every other variable in game is handled by stats in oblivion. Attributes only affected things slightly compared to the skills.

The fan Q&A confirmed that the Stamina attribute will effect encumbrance. It's very possible and probable Health/Magicka/Stamina effect other things as well.

No they didnt. For one example, speed had a way higher effect than athletics. there was a skill that made guards pay off your bounty? Or a skill that made NPCs more likely to yield? No, there wasn't.

Ok. But athletics still affected speed. My point is still the same, attributes just weren't needed to achieve the same results.

They were not the same results though. There was no skill that determined your chance to be knocked down, no skill for overall chance at anything.

Just as Personality does not need to be its own major attribute, Luck does not need to be its own attribute. Personality gives a boost to skills, and that is all that luck does. In previous games, our skill level represents our skill alone. With Skyrim, we now can assume that our skill level represents our actual skill plus the effects of our pertinent attributes, including luck.

Alright, seeing as some people are missing my point.

Numbers are great for many people, as they create a measurable fact that you can then compare to either your own previous numbers or those of others, to establish some sort of progression.
But they are NOT essential to the actual progress I love games with level systems! That's also why I don't want to play action games instead of RPGs. I've played WoW for 6 years...a game that is basically a study in arithmetics!
I for one look forward to seeing an RPG being more about what you do than how big your numbers are.

Now MK, what you're saying is if you can count something, it's made up of numbers? Numbers of breaths to keep me alive?? Really now?
So my clothes are also numbers, because I can count how many shirts I have?
And yes I know a computer is full of numbers...but I don't want it to show me the calculation every time I press a button So thank you for that pointless list of things that are slightly related to numbers.

Now back on topic. The simple fact is that attributes are no longer NEEDED (didn't say WANTED) to determine how well you do certain things (actually many of them only governed how fast skills would lvl, as the skills themselves raised with usage).

No, personality and luck did way more than that.


Without numbers there is no progression. Every thing is numbers. Our reality and its rules are all numbers. We are numbers.

attributes in OB were a pain in the butt

The point in hiding it is to keep you from ever being able to notice exactly how much you have lost. If everything is under the hood, you can no longer make a comprehensive or comparative anolysis of your abilities.

Hiding the numbers altogether offers a much easier way to gimp the Playercharacter, than leaving the numbers out in front and then trying to make them lie.

again...Attributes werent there for Just Skills, im not sure how many times I have to repeat that, and yes Numbers of breaths to keep you alive, all of your biological proccesses require O2 or rather factors associted with its use to function, the very act of breathing that allows you to catalyze energy is the very thing keeping things running smoothy and at the same time causing wear and tear that makes you "age"

My response to yours was undercutting, you went on effectively saying numbers aren't needed they are gone and this is good, my statement says numbers are still rampant so whats the celebration about if you dislike numbers so much

It's like words hit your eyes and the meanings escape you. You keep saying the same thing over and over but provide no argument behind any of it. You just keep half-wittedly chanting "You are wrong". Come back when you learn to construct points and actually back what you are claiming. Oh, and actually try reading what I said before typing your half-assed "argument"

I really doubt they are doing it to make it more difficult. Everything they seem to be doing is to make it less difficult.


Im not here to enlighten the uninformed. If you want people to take your comments seriously, you have to know what your talking about. I shouldnt have to explain the blatantly obvious. If you cant understand that strength raised melee weapon damage independent of skill, then what else is there to say?

Numbers are a man-made concept...so one could easily argue that NOTHING is numbers
We use numbers to measure almost everything, that does NOT mean everything is numbers. And I'm sorry to say, but I'm right about that.

And "Without numbers there is no progression"? Have you ever been on a date? How would you use numbers to measure the progression there?

Actually, try to argue your claims at all, instead of just claiming.

Nope, everything is numbers, all mathematicians and scientists agree. Sorry, Im right about that. Progression is numbers. A real life date isn't a video game component, but 1st base, 2nd base etc. there's your numbered progression.

Why is this "ridiculous" for a person who can become stronger than an ogre, and shoot lightning bolts out of their eyes, mouth and ass?

The game is made in a way to allow your character to become a legendary hero, a.k.a. superhero, with abnormal strength and unusual powers, if you choose to make a character that way.

If all the attribute benefits are crammed into perks, it not only cheapens the perks system, it is also a cheap way of restricting the playercharacter by forcing them to make "eat or drink, be strong and dumb or weak and smart, etc." choices, in some areas that shouldn't have to be mutually exclusive.

Atheletics and Acrobatics should both fall under either stamina or health, and stamina should increase naturally EVEN WITHOUT you having to allocate points to it, just as health does (you can allocate extra points, per level up, but it increases even if you don't, just less significantly) as a result of your activities.

messed up