I've heard many people saying that they don't enjoy how the devs have removed all of the attributes and some of the skills.

Well I don't believe that what you seek is gone.

While they have boiled down the attributes into 3 different things, I don't think that the other attributes of the past are gone, just hidden somewhere more appropriate.

Strength-Now here's an attribute that basically only boiled down to extra damage and carrying capacity. Damage bonuses with melee weapons, I can assure you, will be held under the perks in the 1h and 2h constellations, so why should we really be sad about this stat being gone? Not to mention there will probably be bonuses given from the health attribute. In my eyes, no real loss. As for carrying capacity, I don't know, but I'm 100% certain you won't have a static bag limit.

Intelligence=Magicka

Willpower-Much like the "Strength" of magic. Bonuses given by this attribute can be divided into perks aswell, So no loss.

Agility-I think you can get where I'm going with some of these stats that basically only boosted certain things that can all boil down to perks within specific skills as opposed to being seperate attributes you have to worry about.

Speed-What you wear! And I think I heard somewhere that Stamina would affect your speed, but someone else would have to confirm that. This was basically an attribute for Light Armor, Acrobatics, and Athletics. Light armor can be handled in it's constellation, and acrobatics and athletics are just gone. So no point really remains for this attribute.

Endurance=health

Personality-Uh....speechcraft/mercantile.....did this really EVER need it's own attribute?

Luck-the only thing I'm pissed about.

The attributes are gone, but what they did are not(aside from Luck). They are just "simplified"(more like re-arranged) among the perks and skills, basically cutting out the middle man of "Attributes". As opposed to putting your +1-+5's on these attributes which honestly should have just gone up from your skill-ups, they have done exactly that...put them in your skills. People cry simplification! But really, is that a bad thing? The fun wasn't in the numbers, it was in the advantages and rewards the numbers gave us, and those are not gone.

As for the skills that are gone...live and let die? If it really gets us so much we can rally for them the next game. It's really only h2h and athletics/acrobatics. While I'm sorry to those who cared about them(I was a fan of h2h being a skill) I'm sure that the game will still be fun and balanced without them.

Thoughts?

I'm thinking that by stuffing attributes into perks they screw up both systems. Attributes as a unique system is gone and as such, character distinction there is lost. Simultaneously, you're now forced to sacrifice perk slots to accomplish what could have been achieved with a separate system. So, now perks as a whole are less interesting as they are forced to accommodate the exclusion of attributes instead of existing as their own unique system.

Even though I agree with you completely, what you have stated isn't the main concern of the people that are pissed at the loss of attributes. For "hardcoe RPG fans" or whatever, the point is to be able to define your character to an absurd length, even if the things you are using to define your character are absolutely pointless in a practical sense (I'm looking at you, personality). So the fact that the attributes are still there, only in a different way doesn't satisfy some people, since they want their old-school sheet with numbers to define your character.

This isn't necessarily 100% true, since I'm not a "hardcoe RPG fan", but this is just my conclusion based on many people's complaints about the changes with attributes and what not.

..............no..just no


3 bars do not entail all forms of Stamina or rather how each kind of person can utilize their Stamina

a weight lifter may have to stamina to go at a good pace with 320 pounds doesnt mean he can run as long as a distance runner who can keep pace for 3+ miles without tiring heavily, who can't run as fast as a sprinter who's faster than both the Distance runner and the Weight lifter but can't match either of their feats and none of them can match the Strong back who can carry 1 half his weight in pounds at a decent pace without tiring

Its gone, stop trying to twist and turn it, they are gone, I've had enough PR from Todd and company as is, what THEY are talking about is how Attributes effected Skills are their, I don't give a damn how many times they want to repeat that, Attributes werent just for skills, the sculpted and model the character and set its boundaries for how they act/reacted in the game as per the games Rules

Intelligence could have been made to do More than just effect magicka, people call for innovation, improvement, something new, but when it comes to things taken out oh woe are they for it doesnt matter, that thought disappears quickly.



jeesh 2 years out of 3 you had a small team dedicated to making Dragons the most awesome thing since slice bread for games, but you can't come up with something superior to past games, and instead simplify it? pfft

just release the game already.

uuuugh... this won't end well...

Basically you're right.
Everything attributes did are still in, yes attributes are gone, but their effects remain.

It is gone.

For instance:

In past games, I could create a character who started out with unusually high or unusually low strength. That character would, from the moment s/he walked out of whichever prison s/he started in, have a range of measureable in-game qualities that were a direct result of that strength. The character with low strength, for instance, would be at an immediate disadvantage regarding weapon damage and carry capacity (and thus the weight of armor s/he could equip). Those were tangible consequences that would then contribute to shaping the character - to making him/her something other than just another shapeless lump of clay.

Under the new system, that is impossible. The closest I'll be able to get to a character with such in-built complexity is to make believe that s/he is notably strong or notably weak, then check or deliberately avoid checking whichever perk boxes seem to most closely resemble whatever I suppose might sort of imply notably low or high strength. I'll have to choose (or deliberately not choose) a wide range of perks in order to vaguely sort of duplicate what was formerly handled simply by setting one single number to one single value.

They've thrown out a simple and straightforward system that added complex character depth in favor of a clunky and awkward system that, at best, can only be used to create the superficial impression of that depth.

Attributes as a unique system? Try the oldest system for rpg's??? Seriously. How is it "unique"? How is character distinction lost? sacrifice perk slots? You mean the static 4 that were present in the skills before???

You are stating a whole bunch of bold claims with no reasons as to why. How is the system screwed up? You choose one perk per level, which I can assure you is a lot more than you would get in the older system per level in the long run. More perks in shorter time, as opposed to the static 4 or less per skill which take a much longer time to put up. Not all of these perks are bonuses to "accomodate" the loss of an attribute, there are SO MANY PERKS. Mixed in with the bonuses you naturally get from levelling the skill up, the perks will remain unique and awesome. Perk slots are not sacrificed, they just make more sense. If you use a weapon type more, then naturally you should get better and do more damage with it. As opposed to levelling up, and based on what you do you put points into the attribute, it's right there for you. These aren't perks like your call of duty, they're perks in the idea of "bonuses you get from doing this". Just because some of the perks might be bonus to damage doesn't mean that the system isn't unique. The skills ARE the attributes. You still get your full customization. The "points" you put into the attribute are now in another form.

Let me boil this down to you. The names are different, but now "Attributes" just means "those little bars at the bottom of your screen" and now skills are what it is all based around. Your customization is not lost. Your roleplaying is not hindered. It's simply a more natural "I do this, so I get better at this" system. Less "put your points in" and more "You did this so you're better now choose your treat!". You can continue to disagree, but what you are saying holds no ground in my eyes.

The truth of the matter is that this is a video game. If you want a real life simulator then go outside. These distinctions you want were not made in the other games and I don't understand why you're so angry about it. How about not being a negative nancy with the expectations of a princess(honestly, why does a level of distinction between character's use of their stamina and muscle build really matter in a fantasy world?) Wait more years man. What you want is ahead of anything out there. go make it yourself.

But I do agree, just release the game already!!!! :foodndrink:

I just want something to replace Speed/Athletics. That is the only thing I care for right now. As long as something takes up the mantle, I'd be a happy camper. But then again, why would the devs choose to amuse me, my $60 doesn't mean anything to them.

No you couldn't.

... without mods, console commands anyway.


But a lot of people go on how perks will take over the attributes place.
No they won't, that's what skills do, that's what skills always done. Perks add more depth to skills, and add do things that weren't governed by skills, but that doesn't seem to be the case either it seems...
For others there are those evil 3 bars.

You can still do the things attributes did in the sense you can still use pliers, a rock, and a butter knife to do what all the things your wrench, hammer, and screwdriver did.

Agreed. I'd prefered 1000 times the old attributes (they should and could have made them work instead of simply axing them) or attributes + perks.

I like what they're doing. It feels more real, just like you said, the more you do something the better you get at it. Assigning points to attributes isn't a sure way of improving what you practiced, because you can put the points into any category, which isn't very "organic", if you get my meaning.

By the way, where did you get the info that the attributes would be meshed into the perks?

Willpower and luck are the only ones I'm going to miss, and can be done with perks.

I hope the attributes will come back, at least some of them, in the next TES. Having 3 bars of "attributes" like every common first person shooter is just plain wrong. I hope this "now you don't have to worry about X anymore" is just a phase. World of Warcraft has intelligence and whatnot for christ sake!

No see it was an example perpetuating why the current "system" doesn't do what attributes do in their entirety, and by extension yes all that was stated is possible

Low Stam, High speed = Sprinter

High Stam low Speed = Distance runner

High Stam High Strenght low speed : Lifter


you dont need a freaking life simulator... it was there and could have been compounded on.


and saying all perks will be unique and game changing is an assumption. FO3 has 92 perks including all DLC/Mission Perks and its filled with repeats.....Bash and bash harder is not unique and game changing and is a waste of Perk space for something more intuitive like Throwing Shield, the already have Shield Rush, why could they not have continued down that level of uniqueness for perks? or rather I take that back why not just have that be done on the fly? Hold block, Sprint bam ftw and then use my aformentioned shield throw.

...why would anybody choose a luck perk, or why should there be? Luck governs no skills, but affects them all. As a Fallout player, if I realized one of my favorite attributes "Luck" was axed, and made it a perk, there would be no way in hell I would waste a precious perk to get something to simulate it, in Fallout or Elder Scrolls.

Whats the point of hiding them? Id rather see them.

Yes, in previous games where your character was more pre-determined there was more of a distinction between a strong and not strong character based on the "strength" attribute. These things are not gone, they are just found in different places. Your character doesn't start as something, he is just an average prisoner. He will have things he is better at. Your weapon damage is now more determined by your proficiency in 1h or 2h, which gives bonus to that weapon's damage. Your concerns in carrying capacity can be directed to the new body build feature in the game. I'm certain that if you are of a bigger build you will be able to carry more, unless it's cosmetic. You act like other characters in the game will have the Strength attribute. They won't, so the scaling between you and your enemies will be the same. If you want him to be stronger, you work on the things you want to be stronger in. Through your actions, not pre-determined numbers, does your "lump of clay" become a character. The attribute of "strength" is hidden under Health and the combat skill numbers and perks(not just the perks, but the skill proficiency number). Others not as proficient in that skill will be inherently weaker in those regards. The truth is we don't know what will determine your carrying capacity....so not sure why you think it's suddenly just "gone".

You say it's gone, but I see it.

"They've thrown out a simple and straightforward system that added complex character depth in favor of a clunky and awkward system that, at best, can only be used to create the superficial impression of that depth."

It's "clunky and akward" because you don't get it and it's new and you've never seen it before and still haven't seen how it works.

All of this is preconception. Sorry you can't see it for the positive that I see. What you cry for ISN'T gone, and I'm unsure how you are unable to see it. 11-11-11 come quickly!

You must have been playing different games.

In Oblivion, for instance, a Breton can start out with strength as low as 30. A Nord, on the other end, can start out with strength as high as 65. 30 is unusually low. 65 is unusually high.

Try again.

I'm glad athletics/acrobatics/speed are gone. I thought it ridiculous that, once leveled high enough, you could run faster than a horse and jump higher than leopard (even with armor on), so to speak. Hand to Hand I think should remain a skill since it basically constitutes martial arts. There could be some awesome perks for this as well

Agility can also be viewed as a component of health and stamina -- health because agility helps you avoid damage, and stamina because agility helps you move more efficiently.


Like Agility, Luck can also be viewed as a contributing to your health because it helps you avoid damage.

There's nothing ridiculous about that, its all lore friendly.

Again like I always say, Personality and luck cannot be perk based without losing a previous depth and complexity.

I didn't get the info, it's just if you take the time to look at the system and how it worked in past games, what the attributes did, and what the skills did, you see that a lot of the time they were the same thing. So as opposed to having all these redundancies which had few rewards, it's more rewards which make for more aspects to the gameplay. It's not PR, it's just trying to explain something new that breaks the tradition of the ancient grandfather of RPG's, the attribute system.

You obviously need to take another look at what attributes did. They certainly were never redundant. And skill levels definitely didnt make them redundant.