I am a huge long time fan of the Elder Scrolls series. However, a few things have been bothering me for quite some time. Finally, I decided to take action and start topics on a forum. This is my first post, and I'll take it to discuss the first thing on my mind: loss of attributes.
I've been following Todd Howard and his explanations. I cannot quote him EXACTLY, but I remember reading something along these lines in an interview about lost attributes:
'the eight attributes are gone, now there are only three (health, magic, and energy/stamina). When someone complains about this, I ask them 'what do you want?' they say 'I need Intelligence, so I can increase my magic' but now when you level, you can do that anyway. All the old attributes jus trickled down to one of those.'
I read that and was simply dumbfounded. Personally, if he asked ME, I wouldn't have given the [censored] 'intelligence' answer. Asked for what I wanted in attributes, here would be MY answer:
Attributes are a MUST... ESPECIALLY for an RPG. you need things like Strength, to distinguish the max carry weight between a powerful but physically weak Mage and a hardy Warrior. How about Willpower, to pick up magic regeneration rate? Or speed, to give rogue-like characters a running-speed advantage that their character build needs? Don't forget Agility, to help the thieves take less damage from blows, also a necessity for that build (since their health isn't too high). All of these things don't "muck up the waters", not even close! They make the game experience the way an RPG should be. Skyrim looks amazing, I pre ordered it and plan to puck it up ASAP, but still, attributes need to be included, even if they increase slowly or even not at all. The races should be distinguished, especially in things such as speed and carry weight. As if right now from all I gave heard, they aren't, in EITHER of those things.
I may talk more on this subject later. Feel free to send me feedback, thoughts, hate mail, whatever ya want. I would love to hear your guys' thoughts on this.

-Bill

Welcome to the forums , my friend we've discussed this onto death, you will find supporters of your argument, and opposition. tread carefully.

Agreed, but it's their game and they decided to spread the workload of attributes out to skills and stuff like health, magicka, and stamina. It remains to be seen how well this will work out, but we'll all see on 11-11-11. ^^ (or 11-11-14 to 18 for me... damned delivery times. >_<)

I like the change. Here is why...
Your carry weight can be determined by stamina.
Magic Regeneration can be handled with a perk, or automagically (I went there) by leveling up.
Agility can also be handled with perks, in the sneak tree. Or autosneakilly (I lost my self with that one) by leveling up. Speed same thing.

I like attributes and how they are folded into perks and the 3 main skills (Health=Warrior, Magicka=Wizard, Stamina=Thief) <- the way i see it.

I agree that the races should be distinguished be it speed or encumbrance.

I will never hate!

Attributes were deemed pointless in the end, as they added nothing to the gameplay aspect.

With that said, an interesting paraphrased quote from Todd, talking about how "All these little activities [referring to things like chopping wood, and mining] the player can engage in really helps with immersion." really brings up a question about why Attributes had to go. Even if they didn't lend themselves in any significant way to the gameplay itself, many players define their character through this. I personally don't, but I there are many things I do not do, that should always remain in an Elder Scrolls [every game really] title.

My thought on bethesda removing attributes is that as of right now they think that removing attributes is good thing and that it makes the game easier to understand. But I have a feeling that bethesda is going to regret removing attributes. I bet when they announce TES VI they are going to say:"Attributes are back we never should have removed them." I mean you could argue that Endurance is put into health, Willpower and Intelligence is put into Magicka, and Strength, and Agility is put into Stamina, but really it just makes it even more confusing. They should of just let attributes alone theres no real reason why they removed them.

No one knows exactly how the leveling system is going to be. No one knows exactly what all 280 perks do. With that being said, I imagine that Bethesda had a good reason to remove attributes. It's very possible that they've become redundant because of their new leveling system and because of how they handled the perk system and perk trees. I'll just wait and see.

As of right now, the removal of attributes doesn't seem too bad. It appears as though it allows for more specialized builds, and that may have been a reason as to why they were removed. Just speculation.

More reason to make them have a point, not to outright remove them. :shrug:

Attributes were far from pointless, or redundant etc. Seems like Beth just wanted to use every other aspect of OB as a scapegoat for level scaling.

It bothers the hell out of me that attributes are gone, along with certain skills. I'm going to try and keep an open mind though, because I don't fully understand how the new system works yet.

The type of character I roleplay in TES games is one who focuses on speed, agility, acrobatics, and to some extent marksmanship. I only boost strength and endurance upto a point where my character isn't too weak, and don't usually touch anything magic related at all. If i'm still capable of roleplaying this type of character in Skyrim with the same level of depth (if not more) i'll be happy. If it turns out that the game says "no, be a warrior, mage or thief" i'll be very disappointed.

It really doesn't bother me that attributes are gone. Now I'm curious what will happen when you level up. Will you be given a certain amount of points to divide up among health, magicka, and stamina? I don't think Todd or anyone from Bethesda has commented on this.

Stamina does not mean strength. A power walker can maybe walk for five hours, but it does not mean that they can carry 90 pounds of gear on that walk, nor does it mean that they can lift even 18 pounds. :shrug:
It has no relation to physical strength. A power lifter that can lift 420 lbs. cannot necessarily walk up a staircase carrying it. IMO the only relation that Stamina should have to strength, is that it should become exhausted faster if the PC is over burdened, but that burden should be determined by strength (and not be the max carry weight btw).

Stamina is merely the amount of time that a person can maintain work.

Attributes weren't removed, they have been filtered down into 3 main attributes and the 280 perks.

IMO its crazy ~for an RPG; but not for a game that's not really trying to be an RPG. Non-RPG games do not hinge on character attributes ~RPGs do.

** A character is really like an implement, or a tool in fact. Its a person (or creature) that has relative abilities (strengths and weaknesses), and they generally come at cost, through a system of checks and balances.

Making a character that is insanely strong, gives (or should give) access to options and results that no other PCs have (because they cannot physically obtain them due to lack of raw strength). The body builder can lift open the jammed door that no one else can budge. :shrug: To get that way they did not develop key skills & attributes that would enable them to talk their way out of arrest, or to understand a text in the library written in an archaic language... This is what good RPGs do... They unfold the options for a given build, and hold back those options that are not obtainable to that build.

Strictly speaking, Health, Stamina, and Magicka are more reserves than attributes... but whatever. 11-11-11, we'll see how it goes.

I too felt that the attributes system in TES was pointless, and I've been playing RPGs since D&D...

It would have been so much more pointless in Skyrim with all of the Perks and skills. Its a better system, in my humble opinion.

expect them to ignore this and just keep thinkin attributes are gone.


either way, they'll buy the game.

Thats how i see it and i think it will make things more diverse not less i like it .

yuck, I just got back to the forums after a couple of months now and the discussion is still hereDX

It is a nice discussion topic but watch your back. I am personally for no attributes=)

Hmmm... it suddenly occurs to me that I find it funny that so many people rally in support for the removal of attributes since they're gone, but there would probably be nobody arguing for the removal of attributes if they were still present. ^^ Seems a little post-hoc "It's done, no turning back, so therefore it's good" to me.

Again, though... I look forward to see what they've done mechanics-wise to compensate for the loss of attributes. ^^

Ditto to the OP. ( I've typed myself out on this one )

Honestly, I'm just gonna wait until the game comes out before I start dissecting this stuff. It's impossible to decide whether I like the change without seeing exactly how it works now in Skyrim first hand and after many hours of play.

The same goes for most things that people have been complaining about.

Actually this is the first one we have had in over a week.

I personally didn't really care about attributes especially when I thought that they didn't really do nothing other than pump up skills that you were already pumping up by just simply using them. I think that it is a good idea to just leave health, magicka, and fatigue. Then mess around with how the skills work to make it a little more strong and then use perks to help strengthen these skills and and all your stats. But I can see what you are saying though :thumbsup:

Attributes were increased based on the skills you used, correct? So would it not make sense that the new three attributes follow that same pattern? Think of it in this manner:

1. If you swing a sword one hundred times in hopes to get stronger, will your Magicka increase?

2. If you use spells repeatedly to gain skill in them, will you become strong and hardy?

3. Same thing for stealthy running, how tough will your health get if you are just sneaking and not receiving real blows?

If you get points to distribute among your attributes, it should follow the Skill to Use to Gain pattern. I would hate it if I can increase my magicka after beating a deer down to death with my fists.