Yep, and this time dagger perks for stealth kills will be under Sneak. Makes sense to me: big, brutish warriors will be best suited for two handed weapons; quick, agile fighters will be best with dual weapons or sword and shield; sneaky, stealthy assassins will be best with daggers and Sneak.

Btw did anyone actually feel the need to use spreadsheets for Oblivion? At the time it struck me as an odd thing for Todd Howard to say but it keeps on coming up in these discussions.

I get what Sliegn is saying... but Skill is just that,... if the stronger man isnt using skill, because of his strength, then his skill level isnt at the same as the guy his damage output is equavelant to..
but what i clearly said was the 'same' skill level.... taking out strength is still taking out a factor of what adds up to that damage.
I mean,.... your basically saying strength is already considered into the skill and for whatever reason this is the damage output your capable of.
which isnt the case, strength is not skill.

EDIT: @Chryseis I agree.. odd.... i been finding alot of their reasonings odd of late.... thats why i hoped on the forums to see others viewpoints

Two people can be of equivalent skill and not use or know the same techniques. That also shows how perks work to differentiate people as well. Just because they are of equal skill doesn't mean the weak guy can't know something the strong guy doesn't....

:facepalm:
That logic is so backwards, I don't know what to say.


Yes, that's what it did in previous TES games. So?
The question remains, what new "technology" replaces the concept of an intelligence attribute as a whole.


Great. That argument allows for everyone to be a master of everything, just by circumventing their weakness with a knack. You don't even need to level your skills anymore, because you can be good at something without being good at it.
A strong fighter has a higher damage potential than a weak guy. As already said, if the weak guy knows techniques to help him out, and the strong one doesn't, both fighters are not on the same skill level.


Well, that's what I meant. There are no new technologies that replace features or the "spreadsheetiness" of RPGs. Technologies that allow for more fluent combat, either by letting you dodge manually or have more control over your character, are not RPG related at all. Those features are improvements for the action-genre, because they put the control over the action into the player's hands, and are not dependent on the character role.
On the RPG-side, Skyrim introduces more defined character roles by limiting your advancement, so you have to make choices instead of being able to master everything. However, at the same time, the overall "volume" that character building occupies in the game is significantly less than in most RPGs. Todd himself said in one of the latest interviews that you can play through the game "without looking at the skill menu once".

and if they were truely of equal skill, the reverse would be true,...
in game terms, what your saying would mean the weaker guy had more skill actually. What your saying and the example you give dont add up

@Faulgor THANK YOU... exactly my point

Can you really not take an example given to show how a guy that is "weak" cosmetically (the body type chosen in Skyrim) can to just as much damage as a strong guy and then you take it into game mechanics and say that because one guy knows a technique the other guy doesn't, they aren't of the same level even though in real life, fighters of equal skill usually have widely varying fighting techniques. To your statement, I quote a very wise man:



A strong guy is only just that, a strong guy. Being stronger than someone else in no way means your going to do more damage than another person, it just means your stronger than they are, there are fundamental differences between the damage you do and how strong you are, because a scrawny guy can do just as much damage if not more damage then some hulking guy. (As was shown with Worm's picture of the hardest hitting man in the world)



Omg people, he asked how a scrawny looking guy body type (a cosmetic choice at the beginning of the game) character could do as much damage as a muscular character body type and I explained how, it had nothing to do with game mechanics or suggesting game mechanics in any way. Please read the context of the information before cheering people on and saying that the other person's argument renders the game mechanics useless when in reality, it doesn't for one and two it, shows that weak guys can do just as much damage as strong guys and still have the same skill level.

Sleign, if what you are is saying was true then there would be no need for seperate weight divisions in boxing and pretty much every form of competitve fighting that I can think of.

Funny, just what I was thinking of a moment ago.

All that picture showed us was the combined output of both strength and skill at its best(or as close to the best combination thus far)
that has nothing to do with this arguement at all actually... when your saying two individuals with the SAME skill level but one clearly weaker can have a definate 100% chance of doing more damage thru his skill(or technique, which is still SKILL). That is in no way reflected by the skill level(since we are comparing two of the same skill) or the strength.

Lets remember now,... this is on a game, it needs to be MEASURED thru the game
60 skill = 60 skill = the same damn thing, rather your strong or weak, which is what skyrim does
(60 skill +lowstrength) < (60 skill +Highstrength) which makes sense... or more so than the above
no matter how you put it....


then why did you even bother replying?! this is ALL about the game mechanics!

So I did some research and weight limits were introduced because crowds found it unsatisfying for two widely varying opponents to fight. Also, apparently they used to think that strength made you more dangerous so they were also imposed for safety even though today we know that, that isn't true as strength isn't the deciding factor on damage and thus is why a lighter weight fighter was allowed to fight above his weight class. Like I said, strength matters not on how much damage you do as it is technique. I believe there was a special about that on the discovery channel some time in the past as well as Mythbusters did calculations on boxing as well.

Okay, that's all for now, I'm going to bed for sure now, it's 6 AM and I need to get up in 3 hours, I'm closing my browser now lol.

Well, he does have a point. My little bro actualy has 60lb's of muscle on me and 4 years of wrestling experience to my 0, but when we wrestle to see who's the best we always end in a tie. The only reason I can hold my own is because I'm fast and small enough to slip out of a lot of his holds, and I have a good sense of ballance and I know my center like the back of my hand.

The reason there are different weight divisions is to prevent people from getting hurt. But that doesn't mean the little guy will always lose. Also in Boxing, if all the strong person knows is how to punch, but a little guy has the footwork and speed down, the smaller person would win.

Also, strength and weight have little to do with each other. There are some pretty big people out there who can't make it up the stairs. Skill and strength don't always go hand in hand either.

How?

I think there will be a bigger, more noticeable difference between two people with different perks than two people with different amount of strength.

Yeah, if you don't want to pick a single perk. I would think two level 50 characters who haven't chosen any perks would be pretty similar.

Hit the sprint button.

With that you can obviously run faster and jumps would be longer cause of speed behind them.
BUT, it won't be unrealistic with you jumping 12 feet in the air.

I feel this is a MUCH better system, the acrobatics and athletics attributes weren't that well done, people just jumped around the world like bunnies and when you leveled up far enough you always run like you were on crack and jumped TOO high and long and in slow-mo at that.

Perks will take care of all other attributes and will be MUCH more fun cause they will actually do cool stuff and useful too.
You get to pick a perk at each level-up..

People think they removed stuff when in fact they have more since they now not only have magic but also dragonshout magic, they also have a TON of perks.
You will be able to create so many variations of your character than before.

Skill and Strength (Attribute) not being the same thing is pretty much the argument for having attributes. In your case it sounds like it is your agility which allows you to hold your own against your brother who should, in theory, be more skillful.

Perhaps it would help to point out this is about the game mechanics, hence the post Sleign was replying to, BEING about the game, and its mechanics.
and this was a direct comparison to damage output, skill + strength compared to skyrims, Skill only. and how wierd this is gonna look in game.
the real life examples factor in so much more than just this and really just dont apply or add to the arguement at all... i dont know why that stuff keeps getting brought up when the other factors are a whole seperate comparison on a larger scale... the game mechanics for ALL of it werent even mentioned! speed, agility, dodging, number of hits? none of that was part of this
and even of you did take a real life example.. the results are roughly the same overall when comparing ONLY same skill and one having more strength compared to both having same skill/strength only.

I really don't think this is going to look "weird" in game. Remember there aren't damage numbers flying in the air in TES games. You see a little indication of your enemy's health bar, but you don't even see the actual HP. You're not going to be able to directly compare who's doing more damage, and it doesn't matter because you can't see your enemy's strength stat anyway. Besides, by the looks of it, the game's combat system is going to be engaging enough that you won't be thinking "my guy is stronger because my number says so! I should be doing more damage because that's what the number says!"

eh,.. of course your right again Deathcoffee,.. but as a modder, i'll see the flaw in the mechanics of it anyhow and notice it whenever i play.
I sure hope those perks do a good job reflecting actual attributes of a person rather than spoon-feeding abilties a character of that type shouldnt even get. But then the game should handle differently anyhow to accomidate the differences im sure.
But it still is a poor mechanic like that, my example of a weakling character overpowering all thru skill alone is still there. (Giant comes tumbling thru the forest,.. you poke its leg, it dies because your "skilled")

EDIT @Todd's comment about playing thru without ever looking at a skill menu.... congradulations, same thing on morrowind, only easier cause you dumbed everything down todd >.> but thats another topic altogether... dont get me wrong, much respect for the guy,

I just have one question will be there not so beneficial perks thats add bad side effect not just completely good effects only, or will be there actual penalty perks thats cripple actor but can allow advance further in perk tree?
Will be there Disadvantages not strictly only Advantages?
Attributes done in proper way can allow such things, can perk and skills actually work in both ways?
Since Todd say removing of Birthsigns was just because some newcomers can chose wrong combination of race and birthsign at beginning, does thats says thats we can forget about disadvantages also?

Yes, because running, jumping, and carrying stuff are all good rpg's are about. <_<

The sprint button is not a replacement for being able to increase your running speed an jumping distance in the context of character progression.
Not being able to make a fast running character would be a nail in the coffin for me.

snip

Well, let me save you some time and trouble then. If you are as absolutely determined to hate any and all alternatives placed into the game that replace the old functionality of attributes as you have shown in various threads you might as well just give up hope on Skyrim now.

Attributes aren't going to get magically thrown back into the game and have supporting systems put in place so that they would actually be relevant. Sorry, whether anyone thinks it is right or wrong doesn't matter, it is what it is. If your enjoyment of a game hinges so much on a single game mechanic I don't think this is the game for you.

Well Orc and Bosmer of same level and same skills an perks will do the same damage?
Adding more static attributes thats grown slowly will fix thats, since attributes can be tied to mechanic of perks, so if weak Bosmer thats has the same skills and perks thats have Orcimer will use armor ignoring damage with mace then Orc will actually do more damage because of his higher Strength attribute, what can be involved in work of armor ignoring perk for maces, why all try to replace some feature with perks and skills, while such feature can work together with both perks and skills in synergy not in parallel in awesome way?

Thats not earth so you cant apply realism completely and ignore mystical forces, did you see somewhere person who can jump on water?
Open DnD 3.5 epic level handbook, and you can found even more fabulous work of epic skills, if some one jump on 12 feet in fantasy he is not ordinary person.

For first Acrobatics and Athletics was skills not attributes, speed and agility was attributes, for second how you describe jump height for acrobatic Khajiit and bulky Orcimer if both have large fatigue? How you describe athletic Argonian and Nord who both has large fatigue? They all will move at the same speed and jump at the same height since there is no Acrobatics and Athletics skills and speed attribute?

And what skill will govern running and jumping then?
Making an body skills thats has merged Acrobatics and Athletics, hand to hand, unarmored, skills and will represent Speed and Strength attributes as well as add new features via perks will be logical step does not?

We have predefined magic thats limited to 85 spells, many spell effects was axed, TON of perks is only 15 perks on all skills including leveled ones and thous 15 perks must represent races traits, attribute work, add weapon specialization, add new features to game and more, doesn't thats too small number for all of thats?
Perk system must be really wide to work as actual replace of previous features.