they are called skills, and perks now

GET OVER IT.

What about racial bonuses? Those could add some difference.

And even before, a Bosmer could easily get stronger than an orc and at the end a Bosmar and an Orc both with 100 strength were equally strong.


85 spells that are more uniqe between each other + some spell combinations. And why do you think spell effects were axed? The Drain/Damage/Absord Attribute ones were, but they were hardly the bulk of it.

And while I know all 200+ perks include different levels too but..15? Are you serious? So every perk will have around 10 levels?
Try harder next time.


Actually, perks changing the speed and duration of sprint is more handy. With very high speed, it was really annoying how fast you could run, especially if you have companions or at hillsides, now you have more control over your speed, and you don't have to run everywhere at maximum speed all the time.

Assuming (which is very very probable) that the Orc will start with a higher level in, let's say, "two handed weapons" than the Bosmer. An Orc and Bosmer of same level and same skill level means that the Bosmer spent more time training his "two handed weapons" skill than the Orc since he started lower. Now let me rephrase what you said in a similar but easier to admit way :

"Orc and a Bosmer, the later having trained longer with weapons since the game start, end up doing the same damage. Is that ok?" Answer : Yes why not?

Actually they very well can possibly get "Magically thrown back into the game"... It's called mods, one of the best features of TES games.


And that right there shows the value of Attributes, they handled things like this so easily and efficiently and added a layer or realism lacking without them.

I am not determined to hate replacements, I just don't see the replacements.
Maybe to you, the sprintbutton will replace everything you ever used speed for in previous games. To me, being able to make a character that can jump to places no other character could was an important part of the game. It extended explorable space and gave the world a much more immersive and dynamic feel, because my character choice had an immediate and visible effect. That it could get ridiculous at times - e.g. by running faster than horses - was, in my opinion, questionable. But it is also clear that this was a concious design choice by Bethesda.
Is it so strange to think that some people liked that feature about TES? Who are you to tell people how they are supposed to enjoy their game?

As long as they implement a way to increase running speed and jump distance, either by skills or perks, I'm fine with that, really.

Well in which way then racial bonuses will represented in game?
Maybe racial multipliers, what will add racial bonus to done damage in melee as replace of Strength,
racial multipliers for speed of movement and jumps height,
racial multipliers to speed of magicka regeneration,
racial multipliers to maximum magicka (was in previous games before doesn't work in Oblivion in proper way),
racial bonus to fatigue
racial bonus to health
racial bonus to disposition
racial bonus to encumbrance weight limit
racial bonus to Fate
racial bonus to swift movements
Wait does this not part of work of attributes, starting attributes can do thats all, and even more if will be done in proper way.


Because of flawed implementation of attributes not because of attributes system, 100 strength is (89+=) superhuman, I think unnatural beings thats achieve 100 in strength can be in any races, making attributes have racial cap like it was done in DnD will fix such problem of TES system, oh well TES has many similarities with GURPS and GURPS has proper implementation of attributes.


Premade spells thats become unique is good feature if they assembled from spell effects, new visuals FX and animations, and script effect thats tie components together as well as add unique properties, but if they hardcoded without ability edit them make new similar ones in CS thats will be worse system then Oblivion has, what can have all of spell features of Skyrim with some work and I can provide many examples thats, if Todd think thats spells was too "spreadsheety" thats can be applied to premade ones and from spell making in game, not to modders work.

As well as Fortify/Restore attributes also, how about racial powers many of them use attributes, how about diseases they also was based on attributes, how about less variability for alchemy for potions and poisons and enchanting?
Birthsigns already removed whats stops remove something more?
You can be sure thats spell effects even from Oblivion magic system stay in game, oh well I sure they axed invisibility and chameleon, charm, burden, open, feather, paralyze, reflect damage because too much of persons without of will and self control at forums cry about game breaking, and devs In most ways will remove feature instead of fixing it.
Before there will be no evidence thats at last spell effect o Oblivion (how I can dream about return of spell effects from previous games what was flawed and then removed) will be in Skyrim, I will not change my point of view.


Do the math
280 perks / 18 Skills = 15,5 perks per skill
Do you want a half of perk?
Try harder next time at last in math.

Well if racial starting attributes and racial caps on attributes was applied, characters cant reach by leveling unnatural values in attributes without mystical forces.
Thats one of ways to fix attribute system.


Well lets not revert my phrase, and try understood thats acquired skills (and perks from such skills) do only half of work while another half done by attributes what applied in proper way, and equally skilled in acquired skills characters will has difference in their natural abilities.
Skills cannot represent attributes, actually skills depend on natural abilities of person, of course there can be excludes like Bosmer who train half of his life to be equally skilled as Orcimer warrior, but what thats bosmer will do he will not do the same damage with maces as equally skilled Orc just because Orcimer has natural bonus to damage with maces from his Strength, what is not equal to Strength of Bosmer.
Racial caps to maximum and minimum can be added easy to Attribute system, but such caps will make nervous munchkins who want have 100 in all attributes, and will go cry to forums as before of spell miscasts, Devs think about such customers for first and remove attribute system completely, the same cause why Birthsigns was removed, they need to expand auditory as they do this before with Oblivion.
Many of good features was simplified and don't have significant impact in Oblivion to help newcomers, but such simplifications also cause absurd and wrong side effects.

Removing of attributes was wrong idea, there was many ways to fix them instead of axing them completely, its like axing half of fundamental basis to much classical TES features depend on them, I'd like to see how devs will find out of dead end in which they put themselves, or at las leave use basis to improve and fix as how it was with Oblivion.

Dear OP there is no balde skill.

I for one am glad that Athletics and Acrobatics are removed. I never chose them as major skills -- so they didn't add to levelling -- and so I might as well increase them as much as possible. The result: I ended up jumping too much. Worse, I always felt that riding a horse was a missed opportunity for increasing my athletic skill by running.

Far better will be having perks that affect your movement. If you want to have a fast character, you don't have to refuse to ride everywhere -- just choose to invest your perks in speed-related options!

^this

Everyone chirps on about getting rid of attribues, but as said above, they have just condensed them into 3 core attributes. As todd explained to gain magicka in Oblivion you had to input skills into Intelligence, now you just assign points to magicka directly.
The Magicka attribute will also prob effect the Magicka gain speed and other things as well.

That to me explains alot, but until there are detailed information on what each of the 3 core attributes effect and how they effect the player we cant really discuss anything except THEY HAVE GOT RID OF ATTRIBUTES WTF!!!!!!!!!!

instead of discussing what the 3 core attributes will effect such as Stamina effecting running speed overall or just the length of time you can sprint. etc etc

Come on guys this is not a discussion its just one side wineing and the other side saying 'sounds alright'

I never did, not sure where you are getting any of that from. /shrug

Maybe it'll be skill or perk related, perhaps new spells or enchantments. Who knows. Fact is any alternative presented so far has simply been hand waved away "oh that's not the same thing". Well of course it's not, it'll have a similar effect in the end, but its not supposed to be the same thing.

For Skyrim attributes are gone. If this is such a big issue for anyone as to be, and I quote "a nail in the coffin", you should just save yourself the trouble now and inevitable disappointment later.

Who does more damage with their sword? Conan or Zorro? Does one have a distinct advantage in lethality with a sword due to natural attributes?

I don't think anyone would dispute that Conan's physical strength would be far superior to Zorro's but does that make him deadlier with a sword? If a game was made that simulated both these characters should Conan do more damage in game than Zorro just because his muscles are bigger?

Maybe you think so, I certainly wouldn't. Their skill with a sword, even if of very different styles, are what make them deadly with their weapons. Not physical strength.

Racial cap is not a good way to fix the problem, it would make certain races way too optimal for certain playstyles, like playing an orc mage wouldn't be optimal because he will never be as good as an Altmer mage.

Any race should be able to become the best in their areas, but the way to get there would be harder or easier. Returning to the orc mage, he should able to get better or equal than an Altmer mage, but he would have a harder time doing so.
This is best shown in starting attributes/stats/skills, not on maximum caps.

So if they're premade they have to svck?

You know what... I'm not going to argue about this.

I'll just say, I feel sorry for you.

Even with 5 unique perk per skill I think they could include some "cut" content like some of the birthsigns in certain skills, probably the magic ones.

That's probably because you tend to overestimate how much content was actually cut...

Dead end? Like what?

I don't think we can go 2 days without seeing this thread.

We haven't played the game yet. Once we have a feel for the leveling system and know how deep or shallow it might be. Then that is the time you can feel disatisfied with Skyrim and then you can get on your computer and complain.

But it is a replacement for it. Basically Sprint serves the same function as running did in Morrowind except now in Skyrim, you have walk, run and sprint, where sprint now drains stamina like running in Morrowind drained fatigue. If you were okay with it in Morrowind, I don't see why you wouldn't be okay with an even better system in Skyrim where you have overall walking and running with extra running on top.

just a thought here for anyone who is saying you have to pick perks to increase speed.... this may be worse, but maybe you cant increase speed at all? maybe you're stuck running the same exact speed (depending on your race i would think, or maybe just a constant for all) throughout the entire game?

Maybe you can increase your stamina allowing you to sprint for longer periods of time, effectively increasing your speed as long as the stamina regen increases as well. Maybe the type of armor you wear and the amount of weight you are carrying will have an effect on your running speed. Maybe there will be spells that increase your running speed. Maybe there will be a dragon shout that does a similar thing.

good. i hope they don't let you increase your speed and you don't buy the game. that way you can miss out on an amazing game because you're too stubborn to play a game you cant make yourself run fast in. does that mean the only games you play are ones you can increase your speed to ridiculous levels? which means you're limited to how many games? like 4? good for you.

the sprint button, depending on how fast your stamina depletes while using it, could be a perfectly fine replacement for speed... because there may be miscellaneous perks that you can choose in the game that could increase movement speed or sprint speed. or miscellaneous perks to increase jumping height. there are still ways to make yourself faster by using perks that don't involve leveling blade like i saw some post say. besides you dont always get faster by jogging everywhere... you get more stamina, yes. because of that athletics was broken... and as far as the speed attribute... RAISING ATHLETICS DIDNT RAISE SPEED. that means you didnt raise speed by doing... YOU CHOSE TO WHEN YOU LEVELED. it'll be the same as in skyrim. just substitute a perk for a number on an attribute that you place there after you level with a possible multiplier for the power gamers out there.

I'm sure all those things will be taken into account, yes. I hope so because it would prolly bother me a bit if i had 499 as an encumbrance and ran as fast as someone with 14 as theirs haha.

Exactly.
I agree, i know Bethesda is constantly growing, and to say that Skyrim will be like OB in terms of AI or similar problems.. i think not.
Theyve had 5 years to work things out AI and Leveling wise, theyre trying to fine tone it. I think it will have a SIMILAR feel to OB leveling wise, but itll be more simplistic. Without a character being set in stone "this is how he will be, and he cant be good at anything but a predetermined set of skills" more of a, you play as this person, and hes good at what he utilizes. End of story/thread/argument.

Edit: He/She Because i know not every person will play a male character..

I'm too lazy to search for it atm, so I'll' just check if someone knows:

Is it certain that they have not added any skills?

Is it certain that all perks are locked to a skill, or is it possible that there are a free perk tree related to athletics, etc?

Might there be perks for the attributes? (H/M/S)

There was nothing wrong with Oblivion's AI, it is still one of the best AI systems to date and it had it's main features of Radiant AI cut. There were some things that didn't work quite as hoped like being oblivious to stealth kills and psychic guards but no one should have expected more when Oblivion's AI gave more than anyone had done previously.



They have added new skills to the game.

Yes, they are all locked to a skill and when you level up, you get to choose one perk from one of the skill trees of a skill you used to level. So if you used destruction, illusion and alteration to level gain your level, you can choose a perk from one of those three trees.

Perks do not have a free perk tree related to the old attributes or skill that were removed. All effects of old attributes are still in the game in some form, so you didn't lose anything, you actually just gained more customization with the new perk system and kept the effects of the old attributes. Sprint replaced athletics by giving a big burst of speed that drains fatigue.

Probably won't be perks that effect the new attributes.

i wasnt nessecarily saying OB's AI was bad.. i LOVED ob which is why im so interested in the next installment..
But i was simply replying to those that had compared OB's AI and similar problems to Skyrim's, that hasnt even been released yet.
To jump the gun and say skyrim will be like this, this, and this compared to OB.. its just like blowing steam IMO.
Its like screaming gibberish at the top of your lungs in an overly crouded room... it requires the same thought and intelligence level :/


Edit: lol nobody caught the diss ^.^

Thats not because Athletic and Acrobatic as skill was bad, was bad implementation of their leveling mechanic, and thats apply not only to Athletic and Acrobatic but almost to all schools.
Todd says Athletic and Acrobatic add to much grinding, oh well if some one want power leveling he will grind all other skills also, munchkins without self control and willpower will found any other ways to exploit system, instead of just playing game and see how character will grow
Todd says there was to much grind in jumping and running around, oh well some peoples level

Their speechcraft to maximum by minigame one person to maximum and then talk again in circle
Way to improve instead of axing speechcraft for example by leveling it with number books thats character read, number of dialogues spoken, not through pesky persuasion minigame again, disposition change of sheathed/unsheathed weapons is good feature, but now when dialogues realtime it will be less exploitable as well as add immersion if NPC in surround will detect such act and give player few warning or call guards

Armorer and Block and Armor skills and Restoration school munchkins level them by
By sitting duck and Block or take damage from summoned creature or from mud crab, cast restoration, repair from bunch of repairing hammers
Way to fix
Armorer become smithing and I believe fixed and now grown from repair in much lesser way and more depend of number created items and their cost
Block become more timed and we cant use it as shield wall for invulnerable protection as before, so actual timed blocking and parry will work for leveling, maybe become fixed
Armor skills since we cant repair armors without proper equipment and there is no anymore pocket smithing maybe was fixed at last less exploitable, nice to see ingredient usage for repairing also.
Restoration school can level more from value of restored points or as other magic also from cost of spell not just from spamming spell.

Alchemy after removing of chance of fail and dependency on intelligence was to easy to level, just spamming creation of potions thats can has no practical use at all and even more go and sell them for profit
What was done as crafting skill now use workbench (interesting apparatus still in game thats was good feature thats not need to be axed or now they are redundant?), what nice to see cost of created potion will affect grown of alchemy more then number of spammed potions, thats force player to hunt for rare ingredients thats much more potent,
use more same ingredients for increasing potency (more ingredient usage),
use more apparatus in work (I believe workbenches upgradeable with them or need to have and placed on table proper apparatus) to enhance potency of potion,
nice to see increased skill grown from wortcraft more then just 0.5, thats can be balanced by if become to much powerful by apply all effects of ingredient to player both positive and negative, so it will be actual research, since we don't know what effect in what place in ingredient so we cant use them until reach more skill in alchemy to see it but after wortcraft we know thats ingredient has such effects.

Mercantile leveled by munchkins in way of selling miserable items in great numbers or by selling it and buying it back in circle,
Mercantile (if it still skill and not merged) on received from deal profit (make more sense for investing money since increase profit gain) and successful haggle attempt (haggling lower disposition for some NPC ) and since haggle was successful we buy item so it will cost money as well shop keepers must not haggle for miserable cost items certain value thats depend on Mercantile or Disposition must work as limit, not only by number of sold items.

Marksman leveled by munchkins in way of summoning skeleton and shoot him with arrows since arrows always bounce from him circle can be unlimited
another thing its health sponges thats also help in powerleveling
How to fix
Marksman can rise if we shoot from larger distance not just shoot frequently to do damage, thats provide challenge to rising skill for both player and character, also there can be dependency on damage done, thats will tempts player to shoot into vulnerable parts of targets for example into head, in such way unity between action and RPG will be better since Marksman skill will represent crosshair swing like in M&B and http://tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/files/file/514-duke-patricks-combat-archery/ which do marksman in conjunction of player skills and skills of character in much better way then it was in vanilla Oblivion, since devs rework archery maybe fixed.

Sneak leveled by munchkins sneaking behind non hostile actor with movement into wall
Sneak skill must gain more experience from number successful pickpocketing (was in previous games but was mostly ignored) awesome will be if we can see inventory of target in limited time (depend on skills and agility and luck versus target ones) or it will be not in MenuMode and as dialogue in realtime so actors around can detect player actions and call guard
and undetected thieft (cost of item taken in account since high cost items guarded better then miserable ones, and can work with improvements of crime system
and sneak attacks (if more damage done then more grown will be achieved) , not just from stain in sneak undetected near non hostile Actor

Security leveled by munchkins
Well lame minigame was so easy in Oblivion so I think even munchkins don't level Security or use completely unbalanced Skeleton Key
Fallout 3 use better lock-picking I admire so maybe fixed.
Security (if still here and not merged) gain from disabling traps (yes they must return, why they was axed from Oblivion I don't understood, great thats mod fix thats) as well as from lock-picking and then more complex lock or trap more experience will be received, lock-picking minigame must be harder then it was in Oblivion and character skills must have larger impact not only player skills, fail lock-picking protected by trap lock will trigger trap.
Nice to see blind lock-picking so characters skills will not completely useless even with Oblivion style lock-picking, player can actually hear how tumblers move while skills still save tumblers from falling.
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3742

Acrobatics\Athletics was removed because devs think they have to much grinding, does they think there others way to improve skill and fix it not just delete it from game? But others skills was also grind fest for munchkins does need to make wrong decision from their cries on forums?

For example acrobatics will gain more experience from jumping from high places (falling damage will be applied but leveling of acrobatics will give damage reduction perks, such perks can be racial for Khajiits) not just from from jumping around or from successful dodging of enemy strike in combat,
while Athletics can has experience gain not just from running around but from large fatigue usage, more then just fatigue regenerates overtime so so it will less grinding, since most of it will be used during normal player activity like in combat.


Well I'm like to see and discuss thats, but I'm tired of listening how bad attributes systems was from persons who don't understood how it can be fixed in other way then just axing feature from game
Not a feature was bad, implementation was bad, please understand this and instead of make proposals in ways how improve system they say how bad and useless it was and how awesome thats devs remove it from game without of any conclusions how it will affect game in total, all changes brings not only beneficial things but also bring bad side effects, target minimalize penalties and maximize advantages not just thoughtlessly remove features and don't think about consequences

Where was this stated? The way I interpreted it was that you can choose perks from any of the 18 trees, but higher level perks have a skill requirement like you have to have 50 in One-Handed.

I don't want a TES game where every character runs at the same speed and jumps at the same height. A sprintmode doesn't provide that.
It's not that complicated to understand. :shrug:


:huh:
So, purely out of spite, you want them to remove a feature I liked so I won't buy the game. Great.
... People get so defensive when you don't like something they adore to death.

(By the way, I never said I wouldn't buy the game. You know, there are many nails that go into a coffin.)