Yeah... only briefly dabbled in mods with MW. Thinking that it may change this time. Though I will play through the 360 first and see if it is worth breaking down and updating to a new computer earlier than I planned just for 1 game.

I'd be very surprised if they didn't have any.

^ Smartest explanation I've read.



I sense a trend in the designs and implementations of their games, sharing aspects from game to game as they learn how to do it better. I think this would be a safe bet.


On the other hand, I wonder if they will make speed a part of leveling, like MMORPG's do it. Speed is a formula of your race (height) and/or class multiplied by your level.
This could make for more experienced characters to have more speed, and less experienced ones to have less speed. More experience running from monsters?

None of all the articles and interviews we have had suggest general perks. None. Having them would be nice, but it's just wishful thinking.
We have roughly 280 perks and 12-20 perks per skill. Just do the math.

Yeah, I seriously doubt there will be general perks. But that doesn't mean things like encumberance can't be handled through other means.

Well, felt i had to throw in my two cents.... before i start tho, i will confess that i could not finish reading most of the debates(the "lengthy" debates).

To start, attributes are being taken out and their effects placed elsewhere,.. well cool, we keep all of the benefits and lose nothing basically? thats right.
but im concerned that intelligence/magicka is the center point of most debates on why this is being done.(probally because its the stat Todd mentioned?)
im sorry, but intelligence was poorly implemented in oblivion, very poorly... the attribute needed fixing, not the entire system.(or more correct, certain attributes needed fixing, intelligence just needed it most)

Any PC users remember an Intelligence Overhaul mod? this did what shoulda been done to begin with- making magic skill based, and magicka skill based... while at the same time making intelligence useful. That mod is a perfect example of what NEEDED to be done with the attribute system to make it more sensible.(Just finish up with the other attributes lacking in correct function and viola!)

With that said, ya,... from the intelligence standpoint, it WAS just a trickle down effect. But intelligence was broke that way and didnt make sense.
What happens with the new system that is so much better? perks? more options? Oblivion has perks... oops, did we forget that? yes we have more now, but if i wanted, i could break even the crappy stat intelligence into 50 perks myself... so lets hope thats not their angle(NOTE: the value of 50 is highly exagerated, haha)

Point being, how the hell does my wimpy 4 foot female breton do the same damage as a hulking 6 foot orc or nord just because we have the same "skill"?
by doing what they did, they knocked out attributes that MADE sense as well and traded for something that doesn't.(Or so it appears so far.)
And umm,.. both strength and skill would go hand in hand towards someones abilty to put out the pain. NOT having strength when there would be obvious strength gaps, is just plain stupid.(same arguement with other attributes)
Or maybe im just missing something with their setup, idk.

My only concern is, will this really work? Skills/perks fully replacing attributes? Because many arguements center around intelligence stat "not making sense, as it only affected max magicka"
where, now we actually have an in game problem in the middle of combat where a tiny weakling, but skilled in a blade, can just as easily deal out the damage as his/her opponent with the same skill,.. in my opinion, there is even less sense in that.
But hey,... if they got it working like that in a 'sensible way', im all for it.- otherwise they are simply contradicting themselfs and making more problems/

The new system very much feels like a dumbing down to me. As for the new system having greater appeal with the masses because of the complexity with Attributes, seriously what was so hard or complicated with "I want to be faster, let me put more points in speed" and for players that don't want to bother with any of that a simple "Auto level up" option or button would have fixed that for them pretty easily.

For whatever implementation problems Attributes might have had in the previous game, simple fact of the matter is that Attributes makes sense, they reflect real world things, and they allows one to give clear and defined values to a character, something a perks/feats system can't come near doing as well. Not to mention that the Attributes system allows for far greater variance and diversity. The way it sounds now is that all characters start with the same speed and same strength, without any perks you are as fast as every one else that doesn't have one, and once you get the "fast runner" perk or what ever you are exactly as fast as every other char that also has that perk, and so on with level 3, and level 4 of the perk... giving us what? 3, 4, 5 varying levels of speed? How exactly does that make for more variations then an Attribute with a 0 to 100 value? The Attributes system had it's problems yes, but they were very much fixable, Modders managed to do it pretty good, so i can't imagine the devs themselves not being able to do it.

Perks should have been implemented as bonuses along with attributes and skills, instead they've been made the focus of the new system and i just don't understand why. The only reason i can see or think of for replacing the Attributes system with a Perks one is that perks are "flashier" (at least at first, after a few times leveling up they kind of lose their novelty rather quickly, even in FO3, it reached a point real quick where raising SPECIALS was more valuable or interesting to me then getting any other perk), but that's about it.

Anyways, still can't wait for this game, but the removal of Attributes is definitely something I'm disappointed with.

I thought that my last thread was suppose to get this subject out of people's systems.

This has been said before, and completely ignored by the anti-attribute crowd. Attributes done right are building blocks. Perks are modifiers. Perks don't and can't replace attributes. Perks can enhance attributes and skills, but that's it.

In Oblivion attributes were theoretically building blocks, but were mostly treated as perks. (Todd was incorrect, either by intent or sloppiness, when he said that 1 attribute = 1 effect. That isn't how Oblivion worked.) Also, in FO:NV and some other BGS-ish games (but not vanilla Oblivion) attributes were treated more like the building blocks that they are. And mods for Oblivion and other games have made excellent use of attributes as building blocks (like skills, but more fundamental).

Perks don't and can't replace attributes for this type of usage. If you're doing a sophisticated fatigue overhaul, you might develop a set of equations for different circumstances based on weighted values of str, end, wp, etc. Slopping "enc bonus +1" or "fatigue bonus +1" as a replacement for an attribute doesn't work. It's like throwing out the physics system and replacing it with better animations. You need both: the physics system at the base, with a variety of good animations for the gravy on top.

BGS streamlined Morrowind, then Oblivion, and reduced the usefulness of attributes. Then for Skyrim, they took a look, and thought "these aren't doing much, let's throw them out". What they should have done is looked at what mods were doing, and said, "oops, this is what well thought-out gameplay mechanics look like." Regardless, vanilla Skyrim will probably not suffer much compared to Oblivion for the removal of attributes, and may be an improvement (because the "natural evolution" of a sequential series of bad design decisions is: deletion).

But, if attributes are truly removed rather than hidden, mods which provided more sophisticated, well thought-out, and satisfying gameplay than vanilla Oblivion will be severely damaged. Yes, BGS should have gotten a clue and taken the opportunity to add more depth to their fundamental gameplay (in addition to perks), but they chose not to go that route.

God, some people make my brain hurt -.- Why doesn't opening doors make you better at opening doors? Why doesn't killing goblins make you better at killing goblins? Running all the time doesn't necessarily make you faster (unless you were a fatass) and jumping doesn't necessarily let you jump higher.

There is a great reason, Todd said they were.


Here's a crazy idea. Previously stamina was derived from both strength and endurance while health was derived from endurance alone. Maybe just maybe Encumbrace will be derived from both health and stamina or maybe it will be a flat increase per level based on race or even the activities your engaging in. Really with Radiant Story watching every thing you do they could dynamically give you boosts to speed and jump height depending on how far you run or how many times you jump. Would you object if that were the case, an automatic unseen permanent buff?

As far as personality goes, it always bothered me(as in didn't make sense) that everyone in the world has preset disposition towards me based on my personality yet have never interacted with me. How about letting my interactions with others determine how someone feels about me( plus racial modifier of course, some people are going to like me more or less based solely on race, that's lore friendly).

It's very easy to explain that. Games are supposed to be fun, that's pretty much what they're made for, and what we play them for, if a game isn't fun, then it's really not worth playing, so gameplay mechanics that aren't fun are bad gameplay mechanics, and if you can't make a certain mechanic fun, maybe you should consider if you should have it at all. Of the changes in New Vegas that I liked, I liked them because they had an effect that ultimately contributing to making the game more enjoyable. That seems like a simple aspect to grasp, really, I don't see how anyone can criticize "dumbing down" a game when they can't understand such a simple concept...

And in any case, attributes, as we knew them in past games, are OUT. No matter how many threads you create to repeat the same complaints we've heard dozens of times on the subject, that's not going to change, because the game is too far in development to completely change the core mechanics on such a basic level, as that would require changing things in all other aspects of the game, which wouldn't be feasible at this point in development, so going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and onabout it right now isn't going to make any difference, so unless you plan to not buy Skyrim at all due to the absence of attributes (Which I certainly don't.) I see no reason not to wait until we've seen how the new system plays out before judging it. Now, maybe removing attributes was not a good idea, I can certainly understand being unsure about such a change, but I'm willing to wait until I've tried it to judge it myself, because what matters is not what you use to allow players to define their characters, it's the results that matter. The important question about the system is not "Are there attributes?" or "Do atheletics and acrobatics exist?" it's "Does the system work well?"



Technically, killing goblins does make you better at killing goblins, it's just that you get better at killing all enemies, rather than just goblins in particular. But I see the point you're trying to make, you can't have a skill for every single thing the player could possibly do, not only would that not be feasible, it wouldn't be desirable, because some actions really don't warrant their own skills, whether because it's not needed to have them skill-based (Opening doors, for example.) or they are alone not major enough to have their own seperate skill, now, I wouldn't say being able to run faster doesn't warrant a skill, though having a skill and an attribute that do exactly the same thing (Speed and atheletics.) seemed kind of pointless, I actually wouldn't say I approve of the choice to remove atheletics entirely, but that's a seperate matter from removing attributes, and in any case, I've actually played many RPGs that don't have anything like atheletics or speed, and I can role-play just fine in them, not having an attribute or skill like that removes a way for characters to further define themselves, yes, but even without it, there are still lots of other ways you can define your character, it's not like removing atheletics entirely removed all role-playing aspects from the game.

Not trying to argue on this point, but as an alternative point of view: you've heard of the importance of first impressions right? Salesmen, scam artists, politicians, and many other types of careers depend on quickly establishing a link or an air of likeability with a total stranger. Charm can slowly build, but often it's immediate, and it's based on more than just words: posture, demeanor, method of approach, etc. I've always thought of personality as the sum of all the features that make up charm. Some people are just more likeable and charismatic than others.

We still have speechcraft (all but confirmed by the screenshot of the menu) so there is the charisma and charm needed to persuade people.

err,... who was that directed at?
btw,.. if your not getting better at killing goblins, by killing goblins,.. then somethings wrong with you(as a player), regardless of how the game is set up, :-p

EDIT: When i first heard there was only three attributes, i thought hey! that makes sense sorta,... strength and endurance combined for one,.. intelligence and willpower combined for the second, and agility and speed for the last...
I wish i could see Bethesda full system for this straight up, that way it sounds right now just leaves for too many oddities(as i pointed out with the lack of a strength attribute)

Just a thought. And killing goblins doesn't make you specifically better at killing goblins. It just ups your damage overall. Technically it should be divided so that killing things makes your skill better and gives you boosts against that type of thing due to understanding its style.

Except strength is now in the form of perks. Before your damage was from strength and weapon skill, now it's weapon skill and perks.

Interesting concept.. think new vegas has that by creature type.
I was aiming more at "the player doesnt know how to fight in a game" tho if they dont learn to handle goblins, lol

EDIT: @Sleign
except it was strength, skill AND perks before.... now its just skill and perks.. i fail to see how muscle size is gained through perks also :-p thats not very entertaining

Running cannot be considered a skill because everyone will be doing it anyways, it doesn't add to role-playing. But if light armor for example has perks that increase your movement speed then I'm fine with that. But if our total stamina bar increases our movement speed, in addition to be able to run longer, then I'd say it's smarter than having it as a skill. Because not everyone will heavily increase their stamina.

This is odly similar to my opinion. Hmm, wonder why...

I know you weren't addressing me, and it's about time for me to shut my mouth, but I wanted to make a couple of responses to your post.


I totally agree, but the the devil is in the details. For "fun" some people want Diablo style button-mashing, some want Mount and Blade, some want Civilization, and all want TES to fit their expectations. So that's a recipe for disagreement.


You made a completely reasonable argument, and if more posters were like you, I'd personally have very little motivation to post (arguments, that is). But some thread subjects breed huge amounts of posts from people that don't understand or appreciate lore, game mechanics, basic physics (outside of "education" from games and tv shows), etc. Also, and this is coming from a big Bethesda fan, there seems to be a Steve Jobs-like reality-distortion field in the making on the forums, and I can only see so many posts like that before I lose it. I'm not a lore nazi, or the most knowledgeable person on any of the issues I listed, but for me at least, I can only read so many posts about scoped dwermer sniper-rifles (or "Todd said this", or ...) before I snap. Maybe it's a character flaw.

Actually perks weren't part of that all in Oblivion, they gave you little extra effects that didn't directly affect your damage, not to mention you had no control over them. Also, muscle size was never affected by strength, muscle size in Skyrim you can pick when you make your character, welcome to the world of customizable bodies :tongue:

Better get used to it, this argument will run and run. Until we get to play, level up a few times, and decide for ourselves whether this new system gives a decent feeling of character progression and enough scope for role play, then it is all opinion and speculation.
One thing is certain, max out everything, perks will make your character's skillset more unique than before, but as the perks giveth, the starsigns taketh away, you could get a whole new gaming experience in OB just by being born under the Atronach. We will have to wait and see how it all pans out.

Too your headline: Attributes: Now only three(health, magica and stamina). Skills: "Only" 18 supplemented with perks(for more meaningful decitions on character-builds). Roleplaying will still be inside your head, just like the former games.

You took my words out of context, but i like your point regardless, lol
that at least will be nice,.. i welcome the body customization features.

the new perks will have only slightly better control tho,... its still all skill based
(Power attacks not affect damage? non-sense i say!.. oh wait, that was only for the special effect, crap)

I suppose the only real issue with the point i was making before would be if someone purposely made a weakling looking character built like that (just as strong as someone appearing much stronger) but i cant help but see'ing that happen so much more often now

EDIT again: Has anyone played Arcanum: Of steamworks and magic obscura? I always viewed that game as the best when it came to attributes and derived statistics. Skills have requirements as well. -I wonder how a system more like that would have worked in oblivion? (along with the addition of a few more skills to accomidate it)

And as Deathcoffee noted below,.. that has also gotten to me,... i completely agree