No attributes sounds horrible. : V - Skyrim

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:22 am

This. This shows that the difference between a barbarian and an agile swordsman is huge in comparison to the old system. In this system, the characters would use different skills (like in the old system mostly), they would then be very different by the perk choices (examples you gave and there are 50 out of 280 you can choose on any one character) and then you have to realize that one would most likely have more health than the other and the other having more stamina. However, in the old system, the characters would still have different skills but no perk differentiation at all and then most likely they both would have maxed out strength, speed and willpower. They basically were the same in the old system, with skills being the only difference and in the new system, they are different in skills, attributes and perks. This is what we mean by the system being better (in theorycrafting of course) just by the amount of variation and customization.

Very well said, I've tried to make this same point in a few other of these perk-hate threads but I always got ignored. With Skyrim's system we're going to see a huge variety of character types, more than we had before, not less, especially when you consider that end-game Oblivion characters all look the same with their attributes and skills all maxed out and nothing to differentiate them at all aside from how you play them.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:51 pm

This. This shows that the difference between a barbarian and an agile swordsman is huge in comparison to the old system. In this system, the characters would use different skills (like in the old system mostly), they would then be very different by the perk choices (examples you gave and there are 50 out of 280 you can choose on any one character) and then you have to realize that one would most likely have more health than the other and the other having more stamina. However, in the old system, the characters would still have different skills but no perk differentiation at all and then most likely they both would have maxed out strength, speed and willpower. They basically were the same in the old system, with skills being the only difference and in the new system, they are different in skills, attributes and perks. This is what we mean by the system being better (in theorycrafting of course) just by the amount of variation and customization.

And yet even as I type this they are coming up with some reason why it isn't true despite the clarity of it. All in the name of a war that has already been lost since attributes (as seen in oblivion) are gone at least from sight if not completely.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:16 pm

Attributes weren't slaves to skills, just as I described. They were equal partners, because they can both be leveled independantly of one another, and they enhance on another.And intelligence makes you better at alchemy because it governs that skill. Thats another purpose of attributes, to govern skills. But lets all forget about that, because no one ever used that.If I wanted more magicka, I'd enchant my robes. If I want to be more effective at spells, I'd raise my intelligence and willpower. And just because Oblivion was broken in that sense doesn't mean attributes were broken, it means Bethesda implemented them poorly.

But... you'll be able to do the exact same thing with perks, though, and it'll be both significantly less static and also let you build a character more specifically to your taste. If you want to just back up your melee combat with some Restoration, you could pick up a Resto perk or two to give your self-healing some added oomph, then focus on perks for your chosen physical weaponry. If you wanted to be a master of Alteration and Conjuration, you could do that - and you could even sub-focus within those schools to get effects of your particular interest. No longer do you just get a blanket bonus to Destruction by levelling up (though you do get a blanket bonus in the process of achieving a level up) - you can focus on being a master of hoarfrost or a lord of the firestorm. You can send bolts of power at your enemies individually, taking them down without wasting excess energy - or maybe you're flashy and just like filling an entire room with a gout of pure flame or freezing everything around where it stands, indiscriminately. At least in theory, you get this much customizability with perks - with the old system you just levelled up Destruction and got more effective at every spell in the school, then levelled up Intelligence and got more effective at every spell ever.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:25 am

Attributes weren't slaves to skills, just as I described. They were equal partners, because they can both be leveled independantly of one another, and they enhance on another.
And intelligence makes you better at alchemy because it governs that skill. Thats another purpose of attributes, to govern skills. But lets all forget about that, because no one ever used that.

Except they don't level independently of each other. If you level, if you didn't train anything under Intelligence, your not going to gain bonus intelligence. Thus, skills truly govern attributes.

The thing is in theory that's their purpose is to govern skills but it's really the other way around, as I explained. Also, "because intelligence makes you better at alchemy because it governs that skill" isn't a good reason for intelligence to increase the effectiveness of alchemy. The two flaws I see to that system is one, Intelligence doesn't increase over time, you either are intelligent or you aren't, shooting spells doesn't make your character any smarter. Secondly, a smart guy that knows nothing about alchemy will not make good potions but a dumb guy that is a master of alchemy will make amazing potions. Those are the two flaws with the governing system.

And yet even as I type this they are coming up with some reason why it isn't true despite the clarity of it. All in the name of a war that has already been lost since attributes (as seen in oblivion are gone) at least from sight if not completely.

Well, what alot of people don't realize is that Morrowind had already began the route to destruction of attributes. Those of us that played Daggerfall before Morrowind came out will have noticed that Morrowind's attributes lost alot of their weight on defining your characters strength and alot of that was shifted to skills. In Oblivion it was even more so and now in Skyrim, the old attributes were pushed back to the shadows, they are still there, but not for people to tweak and now we have a vast new system that gives us more control over our character than a number did. It's just as technology moved along and we could represent attributes better, they got weaker. Now we don't need strength as we can make straight damage boost with perks and skills alone and you can make your character look strong with the new body types with skyrim.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:27 am

Did anyone else notice that the OP posted this and bailed?

" This will make these guys freak MUWAHAHAHA!!!!!!!” *leaves quietly*

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:10 pm

Did anyone else notice that the OP posted this and bailed?" This will make these guys freak MUWAHAHAHA!!!!!!!” *leaves quietly*

Well, I guess some people just have things they enjoy (or feel the need to) discuss. Personally, I like talking about perks vs. attributes, but I've always enjoyed discussing game design decisions - even if it's usually about pen and paper, rather than CRPGs.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:05 am

Did anyone else notice that the OP posted this and bailed?

" This will make these guys freak MUWAHAHAHA!!!!!!!” *leaves quietly*

I did actually. How rude.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:18 am

Did anyone else notice that the OP posted this and bailed?

" This will make these guys freak MUWAHAHAHA!!!!!!!” *leaves quietly*

I think the two pages of pure trollin' sarcasm scared him off.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:20 pm

I think the two pages of pure trollin' sarcasm scared him off.

Yeah, that could be it lol.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:58 pm

I think the two pages of pure trollin' sarcasm scared him off.

Yeah, that was fun wasn't it? :tongue:

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:42 am

Very well said, I've tried to make this same point in a few other of these perk-hate threads but I always got ignored. With Skyrim's system we're going to see a huge variety of character types, more than we had before, not less, especially when you consider that end-game Oblivion characters all look the same with their attributes and skills all maxed out and nothing to differentiate them at all aside from how you play them.

Perk hate thread? hardly, no one ever said in any threads like this "PERKS svck oneone111!!" this isnt about perks, perks are nothing new, this is about attributes, and the moment someone bring it up, they are met with pages 1-2-3 of this thread like they are mentally challanged for having a valid concern and differeing opinion, never have I seen those saying attributes were useless or perks are for the better, get trolled flamed, or insulted in their intelligence. if you feel your repeating like a parrot or you have nothing worthwhile to contribute, then don't post and move on, there is no reason to come off as condencending jerks towards other people with differing veiws no matter how many times a topic is brought up.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:40 pm

Perk hate thread? hardly, no one ever said in any threads like this "PERKS svck oneone111!!" this isnt about perks, perks are nothing new, this is about attributes, and the moment someone bring it up, they are met with pages 1-2-3 of this thread like they are mentally challanged for having a valid concern and differeing opinion, never have I seen those saying attributes were useless or perks are for the better, get trolled flamed, or insulted in their intelligence. if you feel your repeating like a parrot or you have nothing worthwhile to contribute, then don't post and move on, there is no reason to come off as condencending jerks towards other people with differing veiws no matter how many times a topic is brought up.

For a while I stopped participating in discussions when someone brought up the necessity of attributes. Then I realized that if I said nothing people might start thinking they were right.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:02 am

Sorry if calling it "perk hate" offended you, but you sure seem to... strongly dislike them?

Besides I did contribute something, I said end-game Oblivion characters all look the same and the new perk system will fix that problem

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:15 pm

Perk hate thread? hardly, no one ever said in any threads like this "PERKS svck oneone111!!" this isnt about perks, perks are nothing new, this is about attributes,

That's the thing, perks and attributes are intertwined. Your right, no one has ever said perks svck but by saying "don't cut attributes, just improve them" that means that perks aren't needed. It's not what the people are meaning to say (at least I hope so) but that's what it ends up meaning.

and the moment someone bring it up, they are met with pages 1-2-3 of this thread like they are mentally challanged for having a valid concern and differeing opinion, never have I seen those saying attributes were useless or perks are for the better, get trolled flamed, or insulted in their intelligence. if you feel your repeating like a parrot or you have nothing worthwhile to contribute, then don't post and move on, there is no reason to come off as condencending jerks towards other people with differing veiws no matter how many times a topic is brought up.

Hmm, usually this is the other way around. When someone says that perks are great, usually someone says that it's dumbing down the game and those like the change are just "mindless, facebeating FPS lovers"....or something along those lines :tongue: I just wish we could get to the point where we can get into discussions that don't end up with people flaming each other. Thankfully this thread hasn't started flaming yet, so hurray.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:08 am

That's the thing, perks and attributes are intertwined. Your right, no one has ever said perks svck but by saying "don't cut attributes, just improve them" that means that perks aren't needed. It's not what the people are meaning to say (at least I hope so) but that's what it ends up meaning.

The first two pages are pretty much straight up flaming...

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:11 am

The first two pages are pretty much straight up flaming...

Meh, more like joking rhetoric but it was dancing on the edge of flaming but with no specific target.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:52 am

Meh, more like joking rhetoric but it was dancing on the edge of flaming but with no specific target.

Yes some of it was in good humor but the other parts not so much. I just am also am disappointed that we had so many harmful comments at first.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:40 pm

For a while I stopped participating in discussions when someone brought up the necessity of attributes. Then I realized that if I said nothing people might start thinking they were right.

and this effects your life how? is it not an opinion? is Skyrim not already done with Attributes? so what?

sovern Posted Today, 01:53 AM

Sorry if calling it "perk hate" offended you, but you sure seem to... strongly dislike them?

Besides I did contribute something, I said end-game Oblivion characters all look the same and the new perk system will fix that problem

k, re-read the qoute of me you used and find where I am offended much less dislike them when my post says otheriwse, you will also not see people saying attributes in TES has been flawless, you will see people saiyng improve them.

When you guys start discussing instead of proving "who's right" when noone is, then a discussion can ensue, but casting your opinions thinking they are fact and other opinions are false, just starts circular arguments...

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:43 am

Yes some of it was in good humor but the other parts not so much. I just am also am disappointed that we had so many harmful comments at first.

I never really meant to flame or hurt anyone's feelings, but these anti-perk threads and arguments are exasperating.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:31 am

but these anti-perk threads and arguments are exasperating.

Yes they are but at the same time people like attributes and people like perks so we should be able to discuss them in a very logical, systematic way instead of bashing the other side.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:32 am

Yes they are but at the same time people like attributes and people like perks so we should be able to discuss them in a very logical, systematic way instead of bashing the other side.

No, we cannot.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:54 am

I never really meant to flame or hurt anyone's feelings, but these anti-perk threads and arguments are exasperating.

Since health, magicka, and stamina aren't attributes but are derived attributes, that means that only leaving those 3 results in 0 attributes in Skyrim. Seriously, who thought this was a good idea? There's literally no difference between my mage and my fighter other than skills? How do I carry more crap without wasting perks? How do I hit harder in melee without wasting perks? How are you going to raise magicka regeneration without wasting perks? Seems like a horrible system where you'll never pick anything fun because you have to pick perks that should come from raising attributes.

Looks like I have to wait for attributes to be modded back in, sigh. Was looking forward to November 11th too...

where in this guys post do you see Anti perk talk? if anything this guy is saying Perks should be used for more pressing things instead of representing arbitrary aspects, and trying to make up for Attributes, which they do not, Skills are everything in Skyrim, and perks boost skills...

Do I need to qoute the 1up article....TODD said it, maybe that will get some attention

3) Skills Are Everything Now

The other side of having no class is the revised skill system. In Oblivion, you had eight attributes and 21 skills -- now Skyrim has three attributes and 18 skills. Before you accuse Howard and his team of babying the game, he points out, "We stripped the attributes to the core health, magicka, and stamina. Before you tell me, 'you took away Intelligence!' I would say, 'but why are you raising Intelligence? Probably to raise your magicka, right?' It was just a trickle-down effect. So now, instead of raising attributes to raise other attributes, you focus purely on the core three you were raising anyway." (NOTHING TO DO WITH PERKS)Additionally, grind-heavy skills such as Acrobatics and Athletics were the ones that were taken out (so no more spamming the jump or sprint keys).

In addition to developing the skills, the player can also add perks to specific skills or weapons(NOT ATTRIBUTES). Howard points out example Perks such as the ability to zoom in or slow-time/hold breath when using a bow, or having axes inflict bleeding damage, or having maces ignore body armor. Perks have distinct requirements (most of the time, simply possessing the previous Perk in the tree isn't sufficient), which Howard hopes will motivate players to explore and try out new tactics in order to snag specific Perks. Between Perks, skills, and Shouts (where the player learns words of power, and strings them together into sentences that result in things like, "Unrelenting Force" or "Slow Time" effects).

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:07 am

where in this guys post do you see Anti perk talk? if anything this guy is saying Perks should be used for more pressing things that representing arbitrary aspects, and trying to make up for Attributes, which they do not, Skills are everything in Skyrim, and perks boost skills...

Do I need to qoute the 1up article....TODD said it, maybe that will get some attention

"Wasting perks" multiple times and "Who thought this was a good idea" when he said there are no attributes in Skyrim (even though there are three pure attributes in it) which directly reflects on perks and how the new system as a whole is terrible.

Also, they aren't affecting arbitrary things, we keep pointing that out in our posts but it seems like people that are wholly against it either don't see it or they don't want to see it. They are big changes in the flow of your character, they actually make an impact on your character unlike attributes. The arbitrary things that attributes do are still being done by attributes, just out of your control and in the background of the game. Perks definitely affect your character in very noticeable ways and are anything but arbitrary. Slowing down your view when using a bow or zooming in. Causing your enemies to hemorrhage and taking damage over time or causing you to be able to do critical strikes with swords.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:20 pm

"Wasting perks" multiple times and "Who thought this was a good idea" when he said there are no attributes in Skyrim (even though there are three pure attributes in it) which directly reflects on perks and how the new system as a whole is terrible.

No...........he did not want to use the Limited amount of perks he was able to choose On attributes.........WASTING PERKS as in they are valuable and limited, you already know you can only choose so many perks to level 50. am I clear now?

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:20 am

where in this guys post do you see Anti perk talk?

It sounds as though he's anti-perk. He's certainly does not seem to be fond of perks. Where do you see pro-perk talk in the OP?

MK, I'm done arguing. I like the new system. You don't. That's fine and dandy. Let's agree to disagree.

Goodnight.