Refer to my prior post, and Like I said Im not arguing or trying to prove anything to you. change the way you think about perks.

Practice what you preach??

Well it might just be that some of us don't really see anything wrong with the set-up as proposed by Todd - I for one don't mind a synergy between Perks and Skills filling in what Attributes used to do, so long as the perks are diverse enough to support a few different playstyles within most of the major skills - like different approaches to sword combat, or different approaches to using a given school of magic. I think, personally, that attributes are out of place in Skyrim and any CRPG which happens to abandon the RNG as a major, or even just substantial method of conflict resolution (and keep in mind I'm a heavy enthusiast of tabletop gaming, and Traveller, my darling system, is set up with attributes and skills in a rather similar way to TES, if different in the levels of those skills and how you advance as it's level-less).

As far as the trends of discussion go - it seems to have gotten heated in a few parts, but it never once ceased to be a civil discussion (ignoring the first two pages and focusing on when a genuine discussion actually started up). Attacking opposing arguments and making defences for your own points is basically the way debate goes - sometimes somewhat more powerful language is used, but I don't think it's typically (in a proper discussion, anyway) in a vitriolic fashion. Plus, while I'd love to convince you that attributes are an outdated system... I heard earlier that in a debate between two sides with very strongly opposing views, your objective should be to win over the people watching from the sidelines, since odds are neither you nor the other person is going to budge from their perch.

So, aside from just generally enjoying the discussion, that's my intention in debating this sort of thing - win over the people who might not be totally set one way or another or not. If I win some of the other side over to mine, sure, that's great too.

The OP says "wasting perks" three sentences in a row. He clearly values perks enough that he does not want to waste them.

The 2nd qoute isnt trying to make an opinion fact, the article itself says exactly what I detailed, not my opinion.

You say "which they do not"
Opinion not fact

I'm still not seeing how they are wasted. They are all meant to be useful if you choose so to use them. This isn't WoW, where you have to pick worthless talents just to hit the required amount of points in a certain tree to unlock the next tier. If they do their intended job of making your character stronger and varied, then they aren't wasted in any way.

:facepalm:

Actually, even WoW anymore tends towards useful talents all around - I don't think my Rogue or DK has a single talent that doesn't benefit them in some way. So even one of the bigger culprits isn't a very decent example of artificially fluffing up talent trees anymore.

EDIT: @MK: You're ignoring his point. Without being an explicit replacement for attributes, perks can still make up for the lack of attributes in the eyes of gamers. That is what we are discussing - that is, I think, what his point is. You're making statements as fact that are actually based on opinion.

Oh, there are plenty of trees in classes that I still have to pick useless talents to get farther down. Wotlk was the worst at this though.

I think I agree. I admit I'm not quite sure how the levelling will work but since skills go up as you use them, and there are no attributes to assign point to the only decision you make when you level up is to pick a perk. Is that correct? Frankly that sounds very boring to me.

Also, given that they've established that you will level much faster than in Oblivion which is extraordinary to me (but most of you voted in favour of it in a poll I posted so I accept it) I think levelling up will be a non issue for me. It will be something I just ignore and pay no attention to instead of it being a big part of the role playing experience like it is in most RPGs. I will just enjoy the game for all the amazing elements to it like the exploration, combat, quests, immersion and eye candy ect. Levelling for me personally (judging by what I've heard so far) will be more or less irrelevant and ignored.

Its a shame but I accept that I'm in the minority so I won't complain about it. It's just the way it is.

the Article details that the 3 attributes and the perks have nothing to do with each other, it explicitly states that Perks supplement skills which are the basis of the game, not skills health stamina and Magicka an opinion would be this won't work which I didn't say I did say they do not take the place of attributes, Todd did not say they take the place of attributes either.

I only have a high-level Rogue and DK anymore - I have a priest I'm working on as a second instance of one I transferred off server, but I don't play the transferee. I'm not that experienced in the wider selection of talent trees, sadly. Not arguing that Wrath was the worst though - but this is off topic, so maybe once I post it I'll have something pertinent to the thread to edit in.

EDIT: @MK: You're not quite understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying, without ever being explicitly stated as replacing the old attributes, and without having to do with the new three prime attributes, Perks can do the job that attributes in Arena through Oblivion - they can make up for the absence of attributes in the eyes of players, if their opinions take them in that direction.

Your assertion and opinion is that the presence of perks doing the same thing doesn't make up for the lack of traditional attributes, those seen in Oblivion and all prior games. Our assertion and opinion is that they can and will.

EDIT2: You said "make up for" not "take the place of." Those two phrases mean significantly different things.

Well firstly, what was so exciting about choosing which attribute got the points when you leveled up before? Secondly, you still choose attributes when you level up and you ALSO choose a perk out of multiple trees depending on which skills you used to level. So once again, your gaining, not losing.

Thanks for your reply. I must be missing something though, because attributes are gone, yes? But "you still choose attributes when you level up?" I'm obviously missing something.

He's referring to Health, Stamina and Magicka, Phil.

Cant say i hate the system as I don't know it. It is definately not an innovative system as it replaces the old attribute system with a bit more shinyness to it. How it is handled is what concerns me. As I have said before: I don't want a bunch of hidden stat modifier perks like +5% firebolt damage. I would actually rather have a trimmed down more unique perk system rather than the diluted 180 perks +ranks attribute system.

Kudos to the OP for a great troll. Not because it's an original topic. But because of the timing. The last few days have been (i) mystery pics on official website, (ii) leaked demo footage. No attributes went off the radar. And up pops the OP and hits you all with a great troll.

(Notice how the OP hasn't posted since starting the thread?)

:clap: :clap: :clap:

They may not be meant to replace them directly but they will provide the functions of attributes (providing function = making up for them; although whether fully or not is opinion)
You said they do not make up for them which is an opinion which you stated as fact.

Ah ok, that's something then.

Thanks for explaining.

You aren't exactly the first one to point this out, sad to say. =)

You know what they say, don't knock it until you try it.

We have three attributes still in the game, Health, Stamina and magicka.

Ninja'd :tongue:



I really don't think you have to worry about that for (at least the majority) perks. All the perks we have seen so far have been pretty obvious changes to the game and useful as well. If you look at Oblivion, most of those perks were pretty obvious changes, like being able to roll to the side to dodge and being able to zoom in.

>_>......so saying what the article states, from a dev, who would have stated if perks had anything to do with the 3 attributes especially when he went into detail and seperated perks + skills and the 3 attributes, not to mention the title of that instance was Skills are everything is an opinion....alright

I guess.

As you said, the perks don't affect the 3 attributes, it doesn't mean they don't in some way affect the old attributes. Strength is a great example. Strength was replaced with perks straight out, was told blatantly that perks give us most of our damage to our attacks. Thus, strength right there was already been replaced with perks. The rest of the attributes are already now passive or in perks somewhere as we have already been told by Todd that the attributes are still in the game.