I like it as I don't have to level up attributes but my question is based around the "trickle down" effects. How is carry weight and magicka regen handled(if it even regens without alchemy/soul gems). Can't say I'd like to "waste" perks in these areas as it doesn't really make you unique and is even more restrictive. I would much rather there be meta bonuses to your primary 3 + whatever race you choose. Adds the benefit of a race rather than just physical appearance. Any thoughts?

I know todd stated AttributesHealth Magicka and Stamina are still in game, I don't see beyond conjecture him saying they are effected by perks :confused:

Not affected by. Perks do not influence Health, Magicka or Stamina.

The old attribute system - Strength, Agility, Endurance, Intelligence, Willpower, Personality, Luck - on the other hand do survive on, either folded into passive effects related to the three primary attributes, or in effects granted to us by perks. This entire time, we've not been arguing about perks affecting H/M/S, but about that.

Perks boost skills agreed
Attributes boosted skills no?
Perks providing the boost without attributes means they are making up for it while not replacing them directly. Which you said they do not do when they do at least to some degree (whether fully or not is opinion)

I never said perks have to do with the three attributes we have now.

I do think they more than make up for the loss off attributes and so I see no point in wondering how to fix the old way if you already have something that works (in theory of course but I have enough info to draw my own conclusions) :shrug:

Chances are encumbrance will be governed by Stamina, not sure about magicka regen, maybe it's a set value, who knows.



It's not conjecture, it's obvious as me typing write now, perks can affect the OLD ATTRIBUTES, not the new ones. Like I said, strength is the best example of that. The new attributes aren't touched by perks, the old attributes aren't attributes anymore so they are fair game. The old attributes are still in the game, just hiding in the shadows and affecting things. This is what our biggest selling point is. Many of the people against the new system think that everything the old attributes did are gone but really it's all there and Todd placed perks on top of them to hide them from sight but they are little shoe gnomes that come out while your not looking and help you.

His use of "effected" instead of "affected" may not be accidental. I think he may mean how old attributes are done through the perk system -- how perks implement attributes, not how attributes affect perks.

Haha. This. Except my main issue is that the attributes are more than likely still there hidden in the perks. It wouldn't be a huge issue to me if these hidden modifiers ALL have an identifiable on-screen benefit to make them unique. Otherwise it's just a "Rope-A-Dope". Thinking on it is like biting into aluminum foil

Well even then, it's limited. The only one we really know of so far that is directly affected by perks is strength, the rest are just sewed in the game as far as we know, such as sprint being the replacement for speed and athletics.



Personally, my biggest problem was seeing these modifiers represented by a number and not feeling that they really mattered after Daggerfall because I see 100 but I don't feel anything because the changes were so incremental that you feel like picking attribute points when you level is all in vain. Them being hidden modifiers that do obscure things feels better to me, that way when I level up, I can increase my attribute of choice, which is a direct value I can see so I don't have to calculate the health gain I would get from endurance the next level, I can just know what my health gain is. Then I can move on to sifting through a few skill perk trees of the skills I used to level and then decide which perk I feel would be most beneficial to my fighting style or the situations I have run into as I leveled or even pick a perk that will supplement my attributes such as if I have been picking stamina alot and my health is low, I can pick a perk that (it's a made up perk just to make a point) let's me parry an attack with my sword if I hit the block button at just the right time, which will keep down on the damage I take, supplementing the lack of health.

I won't deny it's possible, of course, but I don't think it's likely just because that's miles away from the thing he's been arguing for the last page. I mean, if he was referring to the old perks then I'd be happily willing to admit that our knowledge of the subject varies from certitude (weapon perks, mostly, are pretty obviously going to fill in where Strength used to) to speculation with or without knowledge to back it up, depending on the attribute in question.

EDIT: Oh, no, he edited it.

Fact of the matter is, the attributes are gone, and nobody really has any right to say it's good or bad until they try it.

I wouldn't say attributes are gone because people that are still confused about the situation see it as a finality and get angry about it. Attributes are still in the game, you just can't affect them (except for the three new attributes, you still choose one of them to raise when you level up)

We could rationalize a number of others. The Archery perk that slows time can be viewed as effecting a high Speed and Agility. A weapon perk (or even a skill level) that improves damage can be viewed as effecting a higher Strength. Acquiring high-level perks in one or more disciplines might indicate a high intelligence.

My opinion is that the dislike of the removal of attributes is a thinly veiled cover for the actual dislike of the removal of the "master of all trades on any race" mechanic that was given birth to in Morrowind (Daggerfall forced you to chose a set of skills and all others were lost from your use forever) and Oblivion failed to tame it. The reason for that is because it can not be tamed. No matter how hard you try you can not squeeze anymore depth out of two static layers. Bethesda has been moving in this direction for quite some time, towards a better marriage of real time interaction and stat based character progression. Attributes are truly a relic of turn based rpgs and the time for us to put them aside for more dynamic systems has come. That is not to say that Bethesda will nail it on the first try but at least they are evolving which is more than can be said about most of the rest of the industry.

Hit harder and carry more=Stamina. Take hits=Health More magica=magica. Why should you use perks idiot?

:hugs: This.

Off to bed, this thread has kept me up til 4 am now, I think we have got to a nice part in the discussion for me to depart.

I agree mostly with the rest but i have seen examples proposed on how to handle it which seem pretty reasonable..

Yes, but my point is that people won't know until they actually play it. Hell I was one of the people who argued that the attributes are still there, they're just not written in a list in front of people to read any more.

Only thing I'd take issue with is the idea that turn-based RPGs are something to be moved past - even if that's generally what's happening. Being old, in this case, doesn't mean it's devoid of worth - it just means a game has to be built around the idea of refining that mechanical structure if it wants to distinguish itself, rather than simply doing it because it's what's done and what's possible at the time. But I would agree that the old trappings of RNG-based games and turn-based games TES used to hold to are about ready to be cast off - it's just not that sort of game anymore and I think was always destined to move away from that style of gaming as the tech allowed it to.

I do think you can still do a turn-based RPG well, though. If nothing else, TRPGs are great fun - Disgaea alone proves that.

Technically there was absolutely no difference between your mage and your fighter in previous TES games, eventually they could do exactly what the other one did. Your mage could've become a warrior easily and the other way around, that's because nothing limited you and made you special. Attributes could've been maximized in previous TES games and so there was no difference between any class actually (except birthsigns and races which made a difference, and I'm they will make a difference this time around too, depends if there are still birthsigns).

The new system seperates your mage and your fighter, now it's possible because of the perks. Now you actually have to -think- before raising something, because now there's a limit and that makes you special, you're specializing and you're still free to make your own choices. You're writing like the new system takes away your freedom of choice, on the contrary, it expands it.

Just be optimistic, don't judge a new system before trying it and look at all the investments and thought that's put into Skyrim and its features, I'm sure you'll learn to love it.

True. But how to balance this with freedom of choice while making the gameplay mechanics not feel restrictive and linear is ultimately what Beth is looking for. TES games have had a lot of freedom as of late and to take that away is a step in the wrong direction

But I don't see how they are taking it away.
Edit: oh wait i see you're not actually saying they are nvm

I really don't think so either. My main concern is how the new system is handled. My personal preference is that perks should be something unique and character defining. I would hate to see the system be wasted on meta mechnaics like carry weight or magicka regen.

But who better than Bethesda to make such decisions when they have a working model in their hands and everyone else does not. We have to put faith in them and at the very least wait till you get it your hands before dismissing it as the wrong decision. (that's not pointed directly at you btw)

Agreed. While I am wary of their decision I trust bethesda to do what they think is best. If what they do doesn't work out well I'm sure they will change things next time. Just like level scaling and such.

Correct. Honestly I have high hopes for Skyrim. Regardless of how the new gameplay mechanics are handled the game is gonna rock. Simply put they have identified the problems with previous entries MW and OB. I.E. bland dungeons and generic atmosphere are not a concern for me now. Largely I am making assumptions from the data gathered. I post my thoughts and concerns because the thing that makes Beth the best developer is the simple fact that they actually listen to the customer. What we say does have an impact.