I was skeptical at first, but now I'm actually quite excited about seeing what kind of system they'll come up with. I mean, Bethesda, the makers of the best RPG games I have played, they are not taking out attributes without a good reason. They are pioneers and I think this is one of the things that will make Skyrim a more of a breakthrough than Oblivion was.

Also, Todd Howard has made some relevant arguments about the matter, e.g. saying that a player only raised his Intelligence to raise his Magicka. Which is exactly the case. Maybe they are going for a more sufficient and diverse character-building system (I hope); like concentrating on dual-wielding tactics and professions etc. Maybe there will be some sort of a skill tree relating to perks. Attributes are gone, but I'm convinced there will be something awesome added instead.

To clarify on your perk tree. Each skill has a perk tree with 12 to 20 perks inside of it(Todd quote). As of now you don't progress through the trees and you can "cherry pick" your perks if you have the proper skill requirement. 180 perks total with multiple ranks. Haven't done the simple math to see if the Todd quote adds up to the 12 to 20 perks per tree statement.

Ah, nice, thanks, I didn't know about the perk tree-system. It was just a guess. This sounds rather nice and close to what I was hoping for

280/18=15.5

Some will have less and some will have more. 12 being the fewest and 20 being the most.

You're wrong.

I'm not sure how many times, and in how many different ways, we have to explain this. Remember the thread the other day about it? "I increased my character's intelligence because I wanted her to be more intelligent." Have you seen the point I've made repeatedly about attributes? You, I and everybody reading this actually possess those attributes that are being removed from the game. They're not some flight of fancy that Beth just dreamed up one day - you and I and every person on the planet actually has some measureable amount of strength and intelligence and agility and endurance and so on. Those attributes help to define who and what we are, and we just want those same attributes to help to define who and what our Skyrim characters are.

It's really not complicated, nor is it some sort of "thinly veiled cover" for anything. We just want to be able to create characters who are intelligent or strong or agile, simply for the sake of having characters who are intelligent or strong or agile.

I say to you - "Imagine a person." That's it - no more information than that. Then I add, "He's strong." Right there, you have at least a somewhat clearer impression of that person.

That's why we want attributes.

I can only speak for myself, but I despised "master of all" since day one and still want to keep attributes. Frankly I can't see where the connection is. :shrug:
They tried to fix this issue by putting limits on perks and H/M/S (sadly no limits on skills), and there is no reason why you couldn't put limits on attributes as well. Many, many RPGs do it, and it works fine.
So, I'm curious why you think it can't be tamed?

The problem was the attributes reflected poorly in gameplay terms and they had a strange way of leveling them which is why I would say they used perks to provide some of their functions because you can more directly see the effects without it being connected to an arbitrary attribute (although speed, strength and endurance made sense the rest not so much) and it solves the weird leveling. I'm not saying they couldn't change it to work better but they didn't remove them from the way they were for no reason either.

And well RPGs evolve too. And TES is evolving away from the standard attributes defining the character to the actions and skills defining the character (skills include perks too since they are skill boost and sub-skill type things). Most of your attributes can be derived from the skills and perks you choose anyway and the ones that may not be included in some form will probably still be there on some level just not immediately noticeable.

I think they rely on perk WAY too much. I didnt mind the announcement of perks, I think its a good diea to add some extra customization, but now it just seems like an excuse to remove a lot of customization in other areas, like attributes, vital skills ect..... I dunno wth Beth are thinking

I don't really have a problem with this change, though I do think that Bethesda are quick at calling something "mundane" and remove it instead of trying to improve it.
But they're doing it quite discreetly, just a few steps at a time. I think that if they took all the character development changes from Oblivion and Skyrim and presented them
when Morrowind was under development most people on these forums would become upset.

See that's where your failing. My opinion is mine and it's right for me so explain till your blue in the face and your not going to change my opinion or anyone else's for that matter. The bottom line is Bethesda has seen fit to remove attributes and some skills and all of us are going to have to accept that. It will remain to be seen if all of the functions are there but automatically assuming they are not even after being officially told that they are is just asinine beyond measure. (i'm looking at you MX)

Point 1 - there's nothing arbitrary about attributes. Again - you, I and everybody reading this already possess them. They aren't just conjured out of thin air - they're real, defineable, measureable traits.

Point 2 - how could an attribute that, if used, increases steadily and incrementally be more "arbitrary" than going to sleep one night and waking up being able to zoom-aim a bow?


No they can't. I want to be able to point at a character and say, "He's strong." When I point at a character and say, "He's strong," that says something about that character - it provides a quick and straightforward way of describing that character that can be readily understood by anyone. What does it tell me about a character if I can point at him and say, "He can make time slow down." That he's Neo?

Perks have their place, but they're not a fit substitute for attributes. They should be an addition to attributes. "He's fast. He can do extra damage with his sword." "He's strong. He can do extra damage with his sword." With attributes and perks, that's two different characters. With perks alone, it's only one. "He can do extra damage with his sword."

I completely agree with you sir, I'm sad to see perks being their new excuse to get rid of everything else :/

Get over it, nobody will change nothing because of omfgmilion posts. :>

Oh right, how silly of us to exchange opinions on a forum .... -.-'

The "opinion" regarding which you pulled that quote out of context was "My opinion is that the dislike of the removal of attributes is a thinly veiled cover for the actual dislike of the removal of the "master of all trades on any race" mechanic that was given birth to in Morrowind." Since I am in fact one of the people who dislikes the removal of attributes, I can, and will, and did, counter your "opinion" with the FACTS regarding why those of use who dislike the removal of attributes do so.

And let's make something very plain that I tactfully avoided in my last post. The underlying message of your "opinion" is that you think that those who dislike the removal of attributes are liars - that everything that we've said is nothing but lies, and that our true motives are something else entirely. And in that, your "opinion" is flatly and unequivocally wrong. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion regarding the changes Beth is proposing, just as I am. But you are NOT entitled to your opinion regarding my motives. When I state my motives, they are exactly what I say they are. And no message board pissant is going to call me a liar.

I worry about that, too. Almost everything relies on perks, which is quite risky for a new feature.
Also, I don't know if perks can really contribute as much as we'd like to distinguish characters from each other. For example, if we assume the new 1-Handed skill has only perks for swords, axes and maces, that would be 5-6 perks for every weapon type. Not exactly hard to get all of them if you are a dedicated swordsman.
So, how will two swordmasters be different from each other? Of course their other skills could differ, but what if I just want to be a swordsman? :shrug:

I really like their new leveling system, and it has removed all the redundant and problematic parts of the old systems and kept the better parts and added a whole new dimension by series selectable "skill" perks that work like the Diablo games.

They have removed the reasons that caused us to grind and power-game, and gave us a whole new s*xy and versatile perk system that would make each of our characters unique, in contrast to the jack of all trade, semi equal characters that we ended with, in the last games.

I LOVE IT!!!

Play the game, see how it works, then cry about it. You really have no idea what it's going to be like, only that you don't approve of 'no attributes'. I couldn't be happier about their removal as they complicated the game needlessly IMO. And remember to SEARCH before you start a new topic.


I agree. People like to complain that their mages will be no different from their warriors even though the perk system will guarantee this never happens. Step back and take a look at what you're criticizing guys. Oblivion did this more than anything.

When I levelled my attributes, I only levelled them so I could increase my health and magika. They have made the system a lot smoother and streamlined. Perks will be great.

Why is everyone so morbid and pessimistic, do you justsit around all day waiting for skyrim info, then moan about it because you have nothing better to do. What is this attitude of " I know what's best for the game" you are not the developers , and you don't know how much better it may work. I despise these attribute threads, they are so pointless :@

Did the game react differently to an intelligent character, beyond boosting magicka and the effects of associated skills? No? Then what was the point? Sure it can work - in a game that is built up with taking attributes into account in mind, like the first 2 Fallouts. There you'd get very different experiences, with, say a stupid, an average and an intelligent character. It was not perfect - not all attributes got such extensive treatment or were equally useful, but they definitely affected role-play, options and outcomes of certain quests, etc. But in TES?! Are you kidding me?

And really, no matter how often people talk about "slow, lumbering brute" characters, I never heard about anybody actually playing such for any length of time. One of the biggest complaints about MW was that normal movement speed was slow as molasses and everybody levelled speed or grabbed certain boots and used tricks to neutralise their effect.



You are talking about LARPing. Why do you need numbers to LARP again? Not to mention that since you are only using your imagination anyway, what's wrong with high encumbrance + skill in 2-handed weapons = strong?

Just understand that Bethesda doesn't care for what you want to do with attributes. Bethesda is making the game and what they care about is making sure the game WORKS. By that I mean they will NOT spend time to put in the game an "Intelligence" attribute if all the players will use it for is to say "look, I'm smart!". Each number they'll put in the game HAS to do something meaningful and not broken. Bethesda job is to provide us with the means to "simulate" the world as they see it working. They'll put the "Intelligence" attribute in the game when they got a good rule set to define how much you got AND a good rule set to define the EFFECTS of the attribute in the game world. And if the player got to do at one point some choice between two attributes, they need to make sure NO choice are some dump choice.


Intelligence will be in the day it has meaningful direct effects in the game while NOT taking over the role of skills. If all you want it for is for role play, then just say "I'm a smart orc" and ACT accordingly which is the essence of role play, not a character sheet.

I don't much care that attributes are in or out, but if I have to hope something, I hope they are hidden, but set at different values depending on the race. So basically I hope they have become race characteristics, that aren't manipulative.

I have to admit, when I first heard about there being no attributes, I jumped straight on the Nuuuu! *cries* band wagon but now after thinking about it a bit and learning about the perks and how it will work, I believe it will actually create more freedom than ever before!

For example, Oblivion dictated how you were going to play the game right from the off with the use of the attributes, classes and the rest. Skyrim starts you off with nothing (except the racial bonuses), thus allowing you the freedom to properly choose what you want to specialise in without having to depend on an attribute to do it well.

So the way I see it now is that it will be a lot more forgiving with a lot more freedom and with the added bonus of perks! :tes:

In TES attributes did the same thing as skills, they mainly added some bonuses to some skills, other attributes formed as a basis for the main stats, health, magicka and stamina.
Now with the removal of attributes there's no number in between skills, you can directly change your skills and main stats. The only exceptions are strength, which added carry weight, willpower, which added magicka regeneration and speed, but they can be substituted by perks.

So attributes weren't removed because of perks, because perks are no substitute to attributes, those are skills, and they were always stronger than attributes.

Could they retain attributes? Yes, but unless they wanted to stagnate the skill or attribute system needed to be changed significantly.

All the same effects ares till in the game.