When I was reading the GI article, something occured to me after the whole giddy period of digesting and understanding it. (It looks extremely impressive in all respects, really, though I do hope the game has some things like better animations and cloth physics and the like; but I guess we can't tell with that until we see the game in motion) Specifically, in the interface portion, it mentions you can press in four different directions to bring up Skills, Inventory, Map, and Magic as the four places you look at character stats. Included in this is a picture of what I presume to be the skills menu, as it fits the description.

Nowhere on that menu (which also shows the character's level progression, HP, Magicka, and Fatigue) are character attributes (Strength, Speed, Agility, etc) or any sign of them even existing.

In fact, if they're not on that screen, I can't imagine exactly where would they be, or if they even exist. So, I may be jumping the gun here, but does Skyrim even have attributes in it? That would certainly be... strange... if it doesn't.

My guess, if it doesn't, is that there are ranked perks (since perks are relatively common, since you can take them every level and a baseline high level character in Skyrim is 50~ as opposed to the 25~ in Oblivion/Morrowind) like Enhanced Strength, that give you the benefits of higher strength/etc, that you can pop points into at will.

It doesn't look like they have attributes. A lot of people around here jumped down my throat a month ago when I suggested they get rid of the speed attribute, I wonder what they'll think of this change. Hehe.

I thought the merging of speed into agiliy was a good idea.


But I hope we are just jumping the gun on the matter.

I wonder how they'll deal with characters with different encumbrances?

Will perks be doing most of this or taking the place or whaT? Like the strong back perk from FO for example gave you 50 more pounds to carry.

I jumped down your throat because you misquoted a definition and misrepresented the attribute and the reason why there were issues with it to make your point. And this is a pretty opposite sort of change entirely - it's not a removal of a single attribute so much as a removal of all attributes with the addition of a perks system to go along with the skills. Not too hard to disagree with removing Speed if keeping the attributes in general and at the same time agree with removing the attributes entirely.

Maybe instead of SPECIAL (and skills) being requirements for perks like in FO it will be skill requirements like 50 Athleticism to unlock the Strong Back perk.

We don't know for sure. I'm still expecting them to be in. Even with the new leveling system, no attributes would be kind of like Fallout without SPECIAL.

Plus, without attributes, what happens to all those differentiating factors between races?

The article makes it about as clear as possible without blunt confirmation that attributes are out. As for differentiating factors between races, no attributes doesn't mean no special abilities or traits, and we do still have Health, Magic, and Stamina as base stats.

Varying starting skill levels with few unique abilities here and there?

Probably a combination of this and starting health/magica/stamina I guess.

I just hope the races still feel distinct enough in respects other than their appearance, although I do really want to see beast races...

Extreme disappointment if they got rid of all attributes, that's my major concern with the preview so far. I hope that's not the case.

With the removal of athletics, speed must remain in the game for differing run speeds. I don't want every single attribute based solely on your level.
Plus, I highly doubt they got rid of attributes. Will have to see to believe.

My guess is that the three meters will each improve certain 'invisible' attributes. You choose to improve stamina and this also improves run speed. Improving health perhaps improves resistances or carry weight. Magicka improves regeneration and spell comprehension, etc.

This is just one quick way of cutting attribute management from the game but still keeping the character affecting elements derived from it.

So by your take on things you could say that they ended up cutting attributes down to 3... That doesn't sound too good either. :confused:

I like it, makes the leveling system more organic. No more micro managing your attributes at level up. Who didn't have 100 attributes anyways.

The main problem with Oblivion was they tried to blend old gen RPG elements with current gen elements. I awaited the new gen cross-over, just wish they didn't baby step it with Oblivion. Best to just rip the band-aid off, sure some will cry. At the end of the day, as long as the lore and the characterization is there it's still my TES.

I would be all over this if the new system is actually deep and complex and allows stuff like Strength, Speed, Etc to be different for every character in a not-ham-fisted way.

I'm worried instead of improving how attributes work, they simply axed them completely and now every character will pretty much play/move exactly the same, except combat or etc abilities might be different depending on skill specilization. That's a HUGE step back, and one I sadly think they've done considering that seems to be their design philosphy (if it doesn't work 100%, axe it entirely instead of improving)....

They had a system for leveling with no micromanagement already in Daggerfall, and there is also plenty of mods that adressed this issue in a competent way, so again, it all seems a little extreme.

It won't really feel like an elder scrolls game without attributes... I seriously hope they're included.

Yeah it seems from the article that attributes are out BUT, there may be more diversity in the game then other TES games (probably not Daggerfall though) from what it sounds like. Yes we lose the attributes for just three stats but with massive amounts of perks it will cause a wide variation making it where probably no two characters you make will ever be the same (something you can't say about any of the other games except Daggerfall). Perks are basically the return of Special Advantages and Special Disadvantages. Also you have to remember your birthsign, which I'm sure they will be reinventing because of the changes to the attributes, skill and leveling system. Also racials will most likely have a huge overhaul as well. Now the doomsayers out there shouldn't start having heart attacks over this. Massive change doesn't mean it's bad. In fact this game is shaping up to possibly be the best TES to date. Time will only tell of course so be patient and open minded for the sake of Azura.



No what made an elder scrolls game an elder scrolls game was the incredible lore and the fact that "You can be who and whatever you want to be." Taking out the attributes and and replacing it with more customization doesn't take away from an elder scrolls game, it enriches it. If the attributes weren't working it was necessary to remove them and replace them with a different route of customization. The only attributes I thought made a really noticeable impact on the game was Strength, Agility and Endurance and they are keeping Endurance in the form of straight health buffing.

I wonder how luck will be determined.

I'm curious as well...I'm hoping we have a little bit of control over our luck, more so than just assigning a point to it after every level-up.

I'm gonna miss 'em if they are gone completely.

wow if they really got rid of attributes then we can say this game has been fully consolized.


too bad, i liked TES

There's no indication or even hint anywhere in the article that they've removed Athletics.


Read the article. It makes it seem extremely unlikely that they haven't.


"Etc abilities" is a pretty ridiculously broad category to be talking about as though it doesn't make for a significance in character variety. Also not entirely fair to say that they "axed" attributes instead of improving them - attributes weren't something that needed to be improved, they're just something that was apparently removed because they didn't fit with the new character system (with the new system being more or less entirely different aside from the Combat/Stealth/Magic character archetypes and the list of skills involved).

EDIT:
Name me three console RPGs that don't have some equivalent to the attributes in the other Elder Scrolls games or you're going to make it even more apparent than you already have that you have no idea what you're talking about.

How did they replaced them with more customization? Are you refering to perks every level? I truly hope they are not handled as they were in F3, that was super unbalanced, and made for and even easier way to max out a character.

I get what you're saying, but I personally feel like attributes are too big of a part of your character to leave out. I mean, strength determines how much you can carry, speed determines how fast you can run, etc.. Without attributes, every character will have the same speed and will be able to carry the same amount of weight, right? It eliminates a lot of diversity and character customization.