The fact that Destruction, Illusion, Alteration and Mysticism spells are still in Skyrim (with Mysticism being incorporated into the others) would point to attributes indeed being in Skyrim.

I don't see how attributes can even be removed. If it is true I hope they know what they are doing, if not then there should be nothing to worry about. This game is already something I intend on waiting in line at midnight for already and I am 100% certain I will enjoy the heck out of it when it is all installed and running.

Unrelated, sorta note: The Game Informer magazine puzzle could be a preview of the type of quests that Skyrim might have - they require you to think and solve puzzles, or translate runes. It is exciting to think about.

Diablo II had a rather elegant way to deal this without resorting to attributes (it actually has attributes, but they are not involved in skills). In Diablo II, if you improved the Fire Bolt skill it (obviously) improved the damage you did with Fire Bolts. However, it also had a synergistic benefit on Fire Ball and Meteor spells. Same thing for the Fire Ball and Meteor spells, they had a synergistic effect on Fire Bolt. Maxing out one skill was not the end of the road. You could continue improving it by raising the others.

Almost every skill in Diablo II worked this way. You didn't need to add an "attribute middleman" in order for one skill to benefit another.

The attributes governed the skills, each and every one. So each skill can be drained where once it was the attribute. I have Hell Joint? I don't jump as high or move as fast. The once intelligence effecting effects of alchol can instead effect the skills once effected by intelligence.

It's 6 of one, half dozen of the other. Nobody thinks to themselves "I have 8 charisma" They just barter and banter their way to success.

i really doubt they are removed, just no pics of them so far.

Yeah, that's an option. But presumably that would have to work in the following way: increasing your Blade skill will also (albeit at a slower rate) increase your Blunt Weapon skill - after all, it seems we're in a situation where the only thing which governs your ability to use an axe/mace is the skill. In that case, I wonder how this would interact with the new levelling mechanics... Suppose you want to use Blade, but not Blunt Weapon. You might end up levelling faster than you'd want to, because you've got this other unused skill increasing alongside the skill you are using.

(Edit: not sure how much of a problem this is...)

That's already in place. There is no "Firebolt", "Fireball" and "Meteor" spell, there is Fire Damage, Shock Damage, Ice Damage, and a plethora of other spell effects under a category called "Destruction magic".

oh yeh that is right and they did say that we would have 85 spell effects, if we lose those then they gotta be thinking up about 30 new ones

This person makes has shown the most compelling argument, round of applause

There was already absorb, damage, drain, fortify and restore kill spell effects, you don't need to add them. I was just commenting on the fact that removing attributes mean that the corresponding spell effects needed to be removed and as such the diseases system needed to be modified (as does a few ingredients).

Also, If the character "speed" can be modified then you have a "speed" attribute, you might not see it, but it is still present.

That's sounds far more cumbersome than its worth.

You completely missed the point. I am talking about one skill having a synergistic effect on another. A character with high Destruction could receive benefits in other schools (or increased resistance or something). A character with high blunt weapons could receive benefit in blades. All of the effects that attributes had in Oblivion could be accomplished to the same degree (mathematically) without them.

We cannot be sure about the attribute removal.

But if they are actually removed, I can thing about a valid reason why.

The wanted to distribute the skills equally between the attributes to be fair, but this restricted the number of skills and made some attributes unbalanced, so they decided to be done with attributes, (which were not as important as skills), to be free with what they did with the skills.

Those attributes and their relations with the skills and maintaining balance between the skill distribution for archetypes and different attributes can really entangling and cumbersome, so they decided to remove the least important factor, (which could be replaced by other factors), and make an easier to maintain equation.

Now they have only three archetypes and 18 skills, 6 for each, and several perks for each skill. A straightforward linear formula, easy to maintain.

Greatest Common Denominator?

If there are attributes, Intelligence probably won't be one of them anymore since magicka addition will be handled by choosing an increase in magicka or stamina when you level up.

I can't imagine having attributes without Intelligence anyway, so they've probably scrapped all of them.

That's a valid point, and I think you are right.

I had thought GCD would be well known enough from how often it keeps being brought back up throughout all of these threads. GCD is Galsiah's Character Development, a leveling mod for Morrowind (and Oblivion, too, apparently).

I sure hope it just wasn't mentioned. An Elder Scrolls game without attributes won't be an Elder Scrolls game to me.

It feels like they are moving the series more towards the "Action" category and away from the "RPG" category. I can understand that though I guess, the money is in the console under 25 crowd now who like those types of games.

Im one of those gamers who have been playing CRPG since 1983 so I might not be the target audience anymore, I hope this isn't my last experience in the world of Tamriel. I don't dislike all the info I have heard but the attribute topic has me concerned.

I do like that they have addressed the level scaling (Although we will see how it actually works in the game), the dialog and NPC faces and it sounds like they have made the combat more interesting.

As for the story you you being the Dragonborn, meh sound pretty cliche to me....time will tell I guess.

Without attributes we would lose quite a lot of spell effects too. Fortify/restore/damage/absorb/drain attribute...

Yeah, that's the way I've been wanting it to come out even before the GI info came out. I'd far prefer a fluid system such as this than the systems used in past TES games. I don't even see the need for discreet levels, really.



EDIT: One thing that really irks me is when people just post comments like "this has already been discussed" or "there are other threads on this". If there are, post links and report the thread to let the mods decide. Just saying that it's already been discussed or there are other threads doesn't actually contribute anything to the discussion.

Hmm perhaps. But at the end of the day would there be anything prevent a spell that had any of those effects from existing? surely you could possibly cast a spell that svcked strength from an opponent and made you stronger, even if it's not draining from a stat, it could just be done so it nerfed someones attack power for some time. Some of them would defintiely be made redundant though.

There is some iffiness to that.

Still I am skeptical of this no attribute speculation. So I am just going to not think about it until more info is revealed.

I really hope they don't get rid of attributes. Your characters strength, intelligence etc. have been the mainstay of RPG's since d and d came out in '79 or whenever. My kids play JRPG's, I've had a go at a few but give up in disgust when you level up and the main guys str goes up, the girl with the bow's dex goes up and the annoying wizard kid's int goes up, what I don't get to choose, right it's back to Oblivion or Fallout, where I choose. Maxing an attribute in Oblivion gave a real sense of achievement, and though the 5/5/5 levelling was deeply flawed, you had to make choices that really mattered to your character's make up. PLEASE keep them in.

With IGN's reporting on GI's reporting it would appear that they believe attributes are gone as well. They don't say it outright but they do mention what catagories are in the menu and attributes isn't one of them. I like attributes and I don't really recall anyone complaining about them in between when Oblivion came out and now. At least, not on this forum. It seems very odd to me.

I'm having a hard time with this possible 'no attribute' issue. Can't really imagine an Elder Scrolls without them. Just a bit concerned that things like removing attributes might make this less an RPG with action adventure elements and more an action adventure with RPG elements. I just really don't want a Mass Effect or Fable style Elder Scrolls. This is my only concern about Skyrim really, everything sounds great and I'll be getting the collectors edition. The difference between Skyrim being more action with RPG elements rather than RPG with action elements is that if it's action with tagged on RPG than I'll only play the game for 3 weeks to a month rather than the 6, 7, 8 months I've spent playing the previous Elder Scrolls games. I'll BGS the benefit of the doubt and still buy Skyrim and I'll give it every chance. Even if attributes are really gone there's a high possibility that BGS will come up with a better system anyway.