I really think they may be cutting the attributes in Skyrim. In the magazine article it mentioned that when you enter the menu there will be four options: Skills, Inventory, Map, and Magic. We catch a glimpse of the interface for the skill section in the screen shot (If don't know what I'm talking about check out the Skyrim screenshots on IGN). The only place that it would make sense for there to be attributes is in the skill section, and the screenshot shows there are none. So prepare yourselves for no attributes in Skyrim.

I would rather see a system like in Morrowind and Oblivion. Fallout was alright but I was not a huge fan of the level system. I prefer to level up a skill by actually using it instead of putting a bunch of points in it.

Special is only as good as the game it was designed for.

the elderscrolls games are not that game.

I agree.
-They've announced leveling will not grant you attribute bonus'
-there's 18 skills and 8 Old attribute, either they cam up with a system almost exactly like SPECIAL (IE, SEPIAWL, where P is personality) resulting in 7 attributes or they upped the number of attributes to 10...
-there are reasons that either 7 or 10 wouldn't balance between the 3 play-styles (Endurance feeds Health stat, Intelligence feeds magicka... Agility or Personality feeds stamina??)
-Birthsigns are rumored to have been removed (perhaps to avoid the inherent stat bonuses that follow)

This isn't an issue for me however. I've always said, an agile swordsman is as much a threat as a strong one, so having strength alone govern weapon damage doesn't fully fit in my mind.

I actually made a post nearly a year ago suggesting that they reduce the number of skills to 18, that attributes no longer govern specific skills, and that each skill represent a certain effect in the game world, IE 2 combat damage skills, 2 magic damage skills, and 2 stealth damage skill.... also 2 skills for defense each and 2 "world interaction". This makes it much easier to balance play styles as having equal dmg, def and interaction potentials.

*World Interaction would be the crafting skills, as well as Athletics for combat, Speech for stealth and Illusion for magic.

Let's use the Fallout leveling system. Oh yeah, and add perks too. Hell, let's just throw guns into the mix while were at it.

Aw Less Pi!
Was Piles.

Things I like about TES leveling: Is that my skills were increased by using them, not by leveling. I hated how Fallout made you increase skills based on levels. This made the leveling experience short and unexciting. Every level you got so many points to distribute to your attributes like Guns or Science, how as TES games you would increase these attributes on there own, and every 10 of your major 7 skills got you a level up. This meant that I had to spend time in game using my skills to advance them, similar to real life. I increase my proffiency with a bow, by actually using it. This meant you always had to start low and work your way up, where as in Fallout you could literally put all of your points on ONE attribute if you wanted. Obviously your character would be unbalanced, but if you wanted you could get your Guns in FO to 100 within a few short levels by only increasing that stat each time.

I did NOT like FO's experience earning system as a basis for leveling up my character. Like I said, my character got to his peak too quickly, and advancing levels was VERY quick. Every so many kills I leveled up, rather than every so many skill increases. I didnt like earning exp (and therefore essentially leveling my character) by completing missions, picking locks, and so forth like FO. So in a way, I could increase my Guns by using my lockpick and hacking. That is stupid. I also didnt like being forced to level up immediately.

Instead of being forced to pick a perk every level or every other level, I am a bigger fan of the new skills gained every 25 levels such as OB. Everytime you advanced your skill a level (apprentice, expert, master) you gained a new way to use that skill (like zooming with the bow). That makes more sense than just picking a perk for any of your skills. In TES, your skills increased by using them, and by USING your skills you gained new ways to use them. In FO, you never gained any of these special abilities without picking them as a perk. Again, I can choose a perk to increase my shotgun effectiveness.....all without ever using a shotgun.

I would much rather keep the level system of OB, and every level increase get a certain amount of points to distribute to my attributes, just like before. The system needs to be changed however as far as the +5 and so on that the OP talks about. I agree that system was OVERLY complicated in trying to figure out the best path for effective leveling.

But with Oblivion's system, every single swordsman was the same. Little new abilities everyone learned every 25 levels, by no mean's a perfect system. Fallout brings a lot of good idea's to the table, as does the TES system. Taking the better parts of each, and working them together is a great idea. Just because an idea comes from a different game doesn't mean it should be ruled out. New idea's from other games could breath some life into TES leveling system, and make it better than what it was.

I've yet to see a perfect system used in any game. Staying the exact same as past games before will by no means make them any better. Sure, one could take a sword perk even though they're using an axe, but why would you do that in the first place? Just to prove that the system still isn't perfect? Why would one take perks for a weapon they don't use when the number of perks one can get are limited?

Perks could add a lot more to specialisation. The power has been moved towards the perks. It would be taktically folly to choose perks for weapons one doesn't use. In Oblivion someone who used a hammer could use an axe just as well. Now someone who uses a hammer and chooses hammer perks, even though their one handed skill may be going up and they can use an axe better than most, they still won't be as good a fighter if they choose to use a hammer instead.

Birthsigns is verified removed in the podcast.
No world of attributes except that we don't get the raise attributes on level up, just perks and health, magic or stamina.
One thing who support that attributes is removed was a comment in the podcast about running speed and jumping who I did not understood fully.

It's possible to let skill being connected to attributes with 9+1 or 6+1 attributes, 3 skills or 2 and raise them automatically on skill increase.
Also possible to have more fixed attributes like in Fallout 3 who you raise with perks or other ways.

Two reasons why attributes is in, in the Podcast is was said that race had larger impact than in Oblivion. How to do that except giving some races +30-40 in selected skills? Yes they could have lied, and the impact is that faces look more different than in Oblivion.
Without attributes and Bosmer, Khajiit and Orc can carry just as much, they will run just as fast except the orc might be faster because he is larger. This values will be the same at level 1 and 50 unless raised by perks.
Other reason is that all advanced rpg I know about uses stats. Would be interested in other examples.

To answer your question, I didnt mean picking perks for stats you dont use just to prove the system wrong. But say your character uses Blade and Lockpick, ALOT. Now say you level up by using your Blade a lot, but choose a perk to increase your lockpick. While I admit its not necessarily a bad thing, it makes more senes for your lockpick to increase by using IT, not your other stats. I dont want a perk to help me lockpick if Ive never used it, I want perks by using that skill specifically. Know what I mean? I would never choose perks I wouldnt use just to prove something wrong....I was referring to picking perks you actually do use.

I agree that FO features should not be excluded for the fact they are FO features. I actually have a thread about adding features from FO to TES. I agree with the op that the system needs to change for leveling, and FO is a great place to start. And the OP never said this, but I DO NOT want the system to copy FO's. There are good, unique things about each. I dont want TES to jump into the EXP system, where skills mean nothing other than the points you put on them when leveling.

If I remember correctly, I believe when they mentioned races having a larger impact they were referring to the look of the character as opposed to skill based changes. Once again, I don't see how attributes could be included if the only options in the menu (according to the Game Informer article) are Skills, Inventory, Map, and Magic....the only place attributes could be is in the skill section, which happens to be the only section we have a screenshot of and it does not include attributes.

Once again I agree.

I believe race selection will result in more than the look of your character alone, but I agree that attributes have quite likely been removed. The comment about the menu screen doesn't mention where you will view your perks... it is possible that each skill will display perks in a sub category somewhere, however it is still possible that the governing attribute could be displayed somewhere as well.

Zaria, the importance of race selection was already described as having skill benefits (nothing about attributes...yet, if ever). To further the impact of races selection, attributes are not necessary...

-They announced factions existing in Skyrim, selecting a race could play heavily on what factions you begin with, if there are race-based factions.

-All races could also come with a racial ability each, playing further on the importance of race selection.

-Beyond that, certain races could have a Magicka/Health/Stamina bonus rather than attributes

If we speak about attributes as a 6+1 or a 9+1 system, I would have to assume that 9+1 is the more likely set to be used. This is because a 6+1 system, would result in some stealth skills being governed by a stat that doesn't really make much sense.
---Example: The 2 stealth attributes would be some combination of AGI, SPD, PRS.... I've heard agility is gone, so maybe SPD and PRS. The most probable set of stealth skills are: Alchemy, Sneak(+sec), Speech(+bart), L. Armor, Marksman and either 1h weapon or hand-to-hand, so... PRS (personality) would then govern Speech and.... Alchemy?.... Marksman?.... Sneak?.....L. Armor?..... 1h weapon?
I don't think any of those fit... nor does it work if it is AGI/PRS, or SPD/AGI...

So with that in mind, I think 9+1 is easier to work out somewhat more realistic governing attributes.

So, either 9+1 or attributes removed.

With no birthsigns, no attribute change on level, and nothing yet mentioned what-so-ever about attributes, I feel it is most probable that they have been removed. Having no attributes would result in the character using whichever skills they wanted to, rather than the skills which their attributes dictate they should use. I believe Todd Howard spoke about trying to avoid people having to restart etc, based around the usefullness of what attributes/skills they had selected/been using etc... essentially avoidance of Oblivion's tricky leveling mechanic (using a skill to increase it would remain, just not using specific skills to increase an attribute). I can use whatever I want.

This is OK with me, as I've always said an agile swordsman is as much a threat as a strong swordsman, so I've felt that attributes should not govern specific skills.

I like the S.P.E.C.I.A.L.S. system.

I am not a fan of the TES system. I never was, because I find the chasing after maximizing your stat-increase unnatural and forced. Furthermore: Longsword is not a STR related skill in real life. It's a STR / DEX / SPD / END / INT related skill. But I only get a stat increase in STR.

In other words: SPECIALS and TES are both as blatantly unrealistic as any other RP-system, but in Fallout, I can relax and play the game, enjoy the story, marvel at quests and be immersed, where as in the old TES games, each time I have to use a skill I have to consider the possible stat increase. I want to ROLEplay, not RULEplay.

NMM

If you read my posts in here, you will see how FO's system was not more realistic. In Fallout, you leveled up by combat, completeing quests, and picking locks and so on. How does my guns increase by completing a side quest? How does my Science skill increase by killing? In Fallout you leveled up on a EXP system, and rose your attributes NOT by using them. This made for increases being meaningless. You no longer have to actually use a skill to increase it, you simply have to level up.

Say I picked 1000 locks on FO and got a level increase. Instead of my lockpick increasing even 1 point, I add all available points to my Guns stat. This makes no sense.

I actually went downtown to snipe supermutants to raise my science skill, needed a minimum science to hack the computer at the robot factory and it was the fastest way to gain xp.

Another issue, after getting my small arm skill up around 80 I focused on energy weapons and heavy guns, no I did not use any of them until my skill was so high I did more damage with them.
Now for the player this was a benefit, try to pick up a weapon you are unskilled with at level 20 in Morrowind or Oblivion

How does my strenght go up by swordfighting, but not my endurance, hand-eye coordination (dex), etc, etc?

If you read MY post, you'll note that I claimed they are equally unrealistic, as are all RPGs.

Strength does not increase and maintain indefinitely. If you're 5'5 and fairly spindly by default, then somebody who is 6'5 and heavily built by nature is always going to be stronger than you. Weight training only icnreases strength as long as you are training, if you stop you'll go back to your norm. You don't get stronger and remain stronger forever, some people are always going to be smaller and weaker than others.

IQ is not an indefinite measure of intelligence, and intelligence is subjective to the situation and application.



While there is nothing wrong with Fallouts attribute system, I do dislike the skill system. A combination of both is what would be best.

MW/OB skill increase system (they increase as you use them) but with a fixed attribute system. Like I said inn the third post of the thread, Ideally you'd have fixed attributes, and when you level up (after 10 skill increases) you pick a few perks for your skills and your health/fatigue/magicka goes up. Fallout has fixed attributes and fixed skill increases, I would like fixed attributes and dynamic skill increases.

Umm, that was because of Bethesda's god-awful corruption of the SPECIAL system. In Fallout 1 or 2 there was no possible way to max out your skills, so you had to dedicate your skill points accordingly. In Fallout 3 not only could you max out skills, but stats too, which was horrible. FNV is a little better, but not much.

Exactly. Fallout 1 & 2 had a brilliant system, whereas Fallout 3 was basically a modified Oblivion system. In Fallout 1& 2 you would be capped at 30 skill points per level (with max intelligence, usually less) and there were 18 skills, all of which would go from 1-200% The three tag skills would make the assigned skill increase twice as fast. So yeah, even at level 30 you'd still have tonnes of nearly empty skills.

Though, I still do prefer the "training" system wherein your skills increase as you use them. Like I said, Fixed attributes with dynamic skill increases would be the best IMO. I think the "raising attributes" thing was just poorly planned for the start, and nobody ever bothered to revise it. I'd welcome change to the TES attribute system.

Yes, then my character stop adventuring and just stay in Rosenholm hall, ask the maid to bring her beer and read all the books she has stolen over the years I expect strength to go down, not while wearing out swords hitting goblins
And yes I could live with a situation where max strength for Bosmer is less than Orcs who is realistic as they are heavier build.

I also stated that TES intelligence is not IQ, the ability to remember spells is probably more important and ability to remember things can be trained.


NB: you don't level up after 10 skill increases in Skyrim, it's not a set number of skill increases, you level up faster raising high skills than low.
Now if we assume skills increases like in Daggerfall to Oblivion so it's far easier to raise low skills they has to use some sort of skill points so raising high skills is more effective.
Example 90 to 91 give 91 points, 1 to 10 gives 1+2+3...9+10=55 making it more effective to raise high skills.

Although we can criticize FONVs XP system and way of assigning skills, it does completely remove the hopeless grinding we have in TES. So we're choosing between natural and exploitable on the TES side, and unnatural but also non grindable on the FONV side. Which makes both unrealistic in my book.

Do I lack self control if I grind? Maybe so. But a real GM would see right through it and act accordingly. And I think the game should too.

If there were attribute caps for races then I wouldn't care about the attribute system. It just bothers me that at level 30 all characters you make wind up the same.

Though it'd need to apply to certain skills and perks, too. I don't think a bosmer would ever be as good as an orc at using blunt weaponry, likewise I don't think an orc could ever have acrobatics like a bosmer. The plus side of a fixed attribute system is that every character has specialization regardless of their level, but in OB/MW by level 40 you are 100 in just about everything, no different from any other character/race thats at the same level.

SPECIAL was never intended to be realistic. It was a substitute for GURPS when the deal with Steve Jackson fell through because of controversial material. such as the execution scene in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkBNKa2KXZE.

I think that both systems are completely different. TES leveling system needs improved, not changed to anything that resembles Fallout's. In FO, you had little way of increasing your attributes (strength, luck, etc) with a max of 10, while in TES these attributes are constantly progressing on a scale of 1-100, and increased everytime you leveled.

So in Fallout, your attributes stay generally the same as the start of the game, or close. In TES, they increased whenever you leveled. I liked that. It gave not only skills (marksman, blade, etc) a chance to increase, but your attributes (strength, endurance, etc.) changed as well giving a lot more depth to the entire leveling system.

I dont like that I choose these traits in the beginning, and then they are set in stone like the S.P.E.C.I.A.L system. The only way to increase them was with a bobblehead, in game training, or a special perk. NO! They should progress as I level up.

Like I said, you should have 7 major skills that help you level up, like OB. Whenever you level up, instead of weird system of +1,+2,+3,+4,and +5s to governing attributes you used for that particular level, why not get a set number like Fallout did when adding to skills. Say everytime you level you get 10-15 points to add to your attributes, rather than to your skills. For example, I increase 10 levels in Marksman (one of 7 major), and when I level up I can distribute 10-15 points to Strength, Endurance, etc. That would be my ideal set up. The only problem with the attribute system in OB was the 'governing' system and how it made leveling a mathematical disaster.