I strongly discourage doing that, hehe. This project's been going on for like three years now, and as much as it's getting closer, we're not talking about day-to-day updates here.

Hopefully once NifSE is fully released, then you can expect daily updates here.

New rule: any time someone asks me when they get to see Ars Gratia Artaeum, I bump this thread.

Heck - I'll bump this thread for no reason. Whatever, I'll do what I want!

wow if you need help with virus remove, I do that kind of stuff on the side.

Heh, the harddrive that that virus had infected is dead and gone, and I'm on (yet another) fresh install. No viruses yet.

Warning: Epic post, that is seemingly not entirely about your mod. But may also serve as a pep talk.



Being a screenwriter myself, I believe coding is something you do best by yourself. If you get someone to help you out it just won't work. Due to dependencies and down-the-line conflicts with each others work. Like the promising, but epically prolonged dagger xl (a daggerfall recreation project in case you are not in the know) it just takes a whole lot of time to do something big. And this is big.

That said, assigning different tasks, such as the project founder as the primary coder, and others such as making it work in the world, I think - is absolutely viable.

Things like Deadly Reflex, or Better Cities, or Unique Landscapes, or OOO/FRAN/WARCRY/FCOM, and most absolutely definitely QTP3, are things that have made oblivion, a once sparse game, turn into something more accomplished, and buggy, than anything else out there. And oblivion has spawned promising things such as Neirium At Fate's Edge. Oblivion still outdoes recent things, such as Two Worlds II, Gothic IV, etc. Which all have compromised scope (understatement of the year). While a modded oblivion did nothing but make the already large scope of oblivion, something beyond formidable. (and unfortunately, crash when it hit's 2gb of memory use, even with the 4gb patch)

That's why I disagree when people get all traditionalist and say that Daggerfall/Morrowind are so vastly superior to oblivion. Having played both those games to the brink back in the day, oblivion when you consider modding, introduces so much more. So much more than even those games WITH mods. Because oblivion adds a phisiciality to the world, that mods have made the best of. Morrowind had some nice crafting of an original world, moreso than oblivion. But oblivion was, and is, so much more fun to explore due to a supremely satisfying placement of the world itself. The way the imperial city was centrestage, and everything else was situated in a circle around it. Still makes me want to play it. It's something special. Something no game has come close to. Unique Landscapes/Better Cities, just make everything that encircles centrestage, something incredible as well.

And so I get to your project. Adding something like random prefixes to items is something I have thought would be fantastic from the get go. I even posted a thread about suggestions that included the idea as the primary thing oblivion needs, which everyone had a go at me for not making myself.. Because it is fillling a space of lastability that other mod can fill. Unfortunately, for me, and for many hard working modders. Oblivion is a poorly coded mess, adding 230 mods is fine. But oblivion was never designed with anything more than a few lightweight esp's being added. And therefore, even with a pretty little bashed patch, we get memory flooding issues. Stutter remover helps the cpu send equal rights to each cpu, but add a whole lot of heavily scripted mods with huge amounts of data being streamed and crosschecked. And it's not a matter of preventing crashing as it is delaying second-to-second crashing.

What your mod, besides furfilling my need for random loot, does, is it allows less add-this mods. This is also a shame, because I respect the hard work that has gone into them. But the fact is, nomatter how much respect I have for modders, I can't have all their mods installed at the same time. Oblivion would reach it's cap about 100,001% before this could ever happen. Your mod will allow me to remove the "adds items" mods that I now need. Because face it, the huge issue with oblivion was it's lack of interesting loot. Even the horrible original two worlds did that far better. Oblivion was like, check this out, I went into this dungeon and came out with a RUSTY SWORD!!! And enchanting items, always felt like a cheap way to counter this. I get that it's the elder scrolls tradition, but it's not satisfying at all.

Now, I can install all the must have mods, and have it being a playable entity. Even if your mod has bugs, thats one mod having bugs, not 500 all competing with eachother. And as cool as it is to have a different mesh for each item, those different meshes crash games when you are consistently adding new items, often from a shared pool of modders resources. Not to mentions script checks, conflicting esp records. It's insanity.

I would much rather find a sword that gives me the same model, with a random enchantment and name, than a really nice mesh that adds nothing but a really nice looking sword.

The biggest draw of loot in games is the mystery of their practical use. The game mechanics won't change if that well crafted twisty sword does the same damage as a steel sword. And what oblivion needs to complete this cycle of change, is exactly, YOUR, MOD.

Thankyou. Spellchecking not done. Fingers hurt. If you read this, I will express post you a medal.

Matthew.

I read the entire thing - and completely disagree regarding the "worlds" of Morrowind versus Oblivion. Morrowind had incredible behind-the-scenes depth. If Cyrodiil is a sandbox, then Vvardenfell was a desert. Where Morrowind fleshed out a detailed world, Oblivion provides, to me, little more than a Hollywood movie-set fake world. There's nothing to explore in Oblivion, because everything is as it appears at face value. Digging into the background of Oblivion results in nothing in particular. The world lacks mystery, totally and completely. I mod for Oblivion because it is technically superior to Morrowind, and OBSE allows me to do a great many more things than I ever could have in Morrowind, but I detest playing Oblivion, and haven't in years.

Yes, the geography of Oblivion is impressive - and as jaded as I am, there is nonetheless something incredible about stepping out of the Imperial City sewers, looking to distant mountaintops, and thinking "I can go there." I can appreciate that. I just wish there was more to it than a pretty landscape. The Imperial City, in particular, was a significant let-down for me, after the Balmora Expanded mod for Morrowind. The Imperial City just lacked something, for me, that made me want to explore Balmora and Vivec, but not the Imperial City (and certainly not any of the smaller cities). The Shivering Isles did a considerably better job in this area, but was too little, too late.

And of course, mods can help the situation, but not nearly enough. Oblivion is badly lacking in overall cohesion and polish, and fixing that is simply impossible for modders to even contemplate. It just doesn't feel real to me.


Anyway, all of that is rather secondary to the main point of your post: that this mod is what the game needs. I don't quite agree, obviously - it needs a lot more than this - but yes, I do think this will be a dramatic improvement. And I greatly appreciate the enthusiasm for the mod, and the vote of confidence. I hope it does achieve everything you suggest. That would make me quite happy.

Fair call. I respect your preference, although don't entirely agree. As is the way with humanity!!! I have heard many morrowind/preference arguments, and a agree with a great deal of then. Mostly when looking out of the eyes of the person making the argument. For the record, I really love morrowind. And partly agree on a few areas. The twisting, almost... alien, look to a lot of morrowind, blew me away. Being someone who is a fan of such things, that did in fact introduce a lot of mystery. Plus I found the cave systems in morrowind (i think I pretty much explored every cave) to be more... random. Finding boots of levitation (again on topic to your mod for a very brief moment (pss. Add levitation as a stat) ) and then flying around morrowind, was, for the time, a complete first. (having never played daggerfall, so this was the first game to ever do this) and mostly, because I could explore without limits and like most people, I always respect the first time i touch a certain area, and it sticks with me most. But I also appreciate what I consider advancements in my eyes, I say in my eyes, because something significant to me, may not be so to someone else. For me, in oblivion, the combination of phisical objects, and physical combat (and yes, combat pre-combat mods was basic, in oblivion, and morrowind) made it feel dynamic, even if it was not exactly. Swinging a sword into someones head was hitbox - i think. Even tho it felt dynamic. Although, at the time, it just felt awe inspiring. Plus, the flawed, but entertaining radiant ai system, never felt overhyped to me. Sure, it created strange events, but those strange events where awesome. And combine that with NOT including "friendly factions" in fcom, I just love it how they all fight amounst eachother. Or in open cities, how there are hordes of creatures walking past and fighting the guards. It makes the world feel alive. Even if it is just basically a very basic routine script reacting to another one. For me, morrwind felt painfully static. Something I ignored in 2002.


But most of all, while oblivion is foresty, and again, preference, I prefer trees, and in particular, oblivion trees, and grass. It just makes the game feel like a non-stop painting. Morrowind had fog pre-MGE, and the mystery was a moderate world that seemed huge, oblivion felt huge from the start, only i could look ahead at some castle in the far distance, and say, I'm going to walk there. It's a psychology thing.See what's in that castle.Right at the top of that mountain. Plus, as I mentioned in my above post, it has this circular nature, which somehow responds to the primary reason I play open world games, to feel inspired while exploring. Fallout 3 and in particular, the buggy, but brilliant vegas, are the only other games that produce that sense of wonder for me. It's a rare thing.


Look, anything beyond this is semantics, personal preference, and such. That said, I'm glad you ARE modding this aspect. Just know there are fans of oblivion who are cheering you on, and would love to see the varied results.
Shame I don't mod myself, it's so intriguing. But I guess I need to focus what I'm good at.

Finally, I just love how with oblivion and it's...... totally bat[censored] insane, amount of mods, OBSE, nifscript, OBGE, I love to be the user-end-scientist. And mix and match. But yours seems to stand on it's very separate pedestal.

I hope you get a really high ranking on tes nexus, and others feel like I do, when you finally do release it.

Grabbing objects and Havok, yes, are considerable improvements in Oblivion versus Morrowind. It's not that Oblivion didn't improve on Morrowind in many different areas - it did - it's just that I feel that Oblivion lost a lot of what made Morrowind so wonderful in the process. Combat is better, the world is larger and more aesthetically impressive, Havok does add a fair amount, etc. But what Oblivion lost in terms of lore and dialogue and backstory just isn't worth all of that to me. I'm definitely one of those people who value voice acting not in the least, especially compared to the loss of dialogue.

I do love the modding scene, though Morrowind had that too (and certain aspects of Morrowind's scene were perhaps preferable). And heh, yeah, I'd love a high ranking on TES Nexus. That would definitely be cool.

In an effort to keep our discussion from consuming more space than it has to, due to my need to use lots of words. Let's both hope they reintroduce the best from morrowind and the best from oblivion, into the next elder scrolls game.

Ahhhh. The fact that this mod has been in the works for so long, must feel daunting. I hope the progress pays off. Sure, modding is probably satisfying for independent from people -reasons, but surely getting feedback and knowing that a lot of people are now integrating this into their games, would be rather great as well. And hopefully the next elder scrolls game uses the same thinking code wise, in terms of mods, as oblivion. So maybe you can import a lot, in case you ever feel the need. Or not, if you are busy with life. (all this not even knowing if there WILL be another elder scrolls game in the next 10 years, shame on me)

I hope you manage this.

Matt.

Agreed. The Shivering Isles gives me some hope on that score.


Like you wouldn't believe. It is much easier to work on NifSE than ARES simply because of the sheer amount of time I've worked on this - and with so many lengthy breaks due to RL. Just getting a handle on where the project stands is very difficult.


Both are true. I mean, there's probably no modder out there with a project as old as this (barring Tamriel-Rebuilt), and the only reason this isn't abandonware is because I honestly enjoy working on it. Still, yes, feedback helps - which tejon has never been slow to offer, heh. Usually in the form of prodding me to work on it :tops:


Rumors suggest they've been working on it for quite a while, which fits the general business model of the industry. More importantly is whether or not there will be an OBSE-equivalent for it...


Oh, I will - and at this point, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Kevin.

One last thing on the elder scrolls topic (i bet you thought i concluded before, HA, tricked you!)

This is very superficial of me, VERY, but i hope they introduce tessellation in the next game that you have just given me a glimmer more hope about. Check out some of the youtube stuff. It's damn impressive. (or run that dragon benchmark assuming you have dx11)

Also, I'll prod you every now and then as well. I'll be a prodder.

Prod. Prod. Prod.


Prod.

(also, last last last thing before I leave, don't create huge expectations just because you have taken a while doing this, you can always fix it up further via revisions, we get that new obse revisions, new formats, scripting, rewrites, are something that's easy to almost hit the reset switch on, but that's the way with non-coding things as well, with my screenwriting, it's painful how much i revise my own content, just keep working on it, you will know once it's releasable. I have been following the new revision of deadly reflex for a while now, and what I got was pretty damn buggy once it did come out, but I don't mind. It's still pretty brilliant, just there are holes due to it being ambitious, but everyone still sees the huge potential in it, both now, and once some of the issues have been ironed out.)


Prod.

One step at a time. I always have this surge of dread when I'm returning to a project I haven't looked at for a while -- even nGCD! -- because, like you said, it takes a while just to figure out where you are. Remember all the tricks and work-arounds and which tab fits in which slot. My releases always come in waves because it takes me a while to push myself back into that zone -- but once I'm there, it's not limited to that one mod. I can roll through and make all the little (or big) fixes I've been planning to several. The problem is that after a few weeks I realize that I've been spending most of my waking hours in the CS and decide to take a break to live the rest of my life for a bit -- and poof, the steam is gone!

Just no good at pacing myself. But at least I've learned to recognize the cycle, which helps me avoid the associated emotional distress. Worrying that I was disappointing people with my absence made it even harder to get back into the flow.

Anyway, I really do hope you find this track again soon. Even if you only get the foundation in place -- all I need is the mechanical resource, I'll be doing all my own gameworld integration! If you can get it to "functional tool" state, like JRoush's various recent offerings, you'll have already made something very valuable to the community even if it's not yet viable for the end-user.

Hey, Tejon, when do we get to see Ars Gratia Artaeum?

Ooh ooh rule says I have to bump!

Page five already? No... this simply will not do.

DW, I wonder if it might be easier to just start from scratch? I've done that more than once with nGCD!

Page 9 if you're using the old forum's numbering style, but I agree - Won't do at all.

Well, in reality - most of the scripts will probably have to be redone, because most of them were written when OBSE was in v0014, IIRC? The C++ code should be mostly fine, though I'll have to strip out a lot of it that was from before OBME was available and would replicate its features poorly. But the biggest part of the project - the organizing, naming, placing, and balancing of the affixes - is done and is not ever going to need changes.

:spotted owl:

So we are at least a little closer.
Keep up the good work, the idea is awesome. Thanks for this :foodndrink:

Hmmm, so, not knowing anything about the code side of modding. I guess porting the code across obse revisions is not a walk in the park.

Also, i guess there is a need to take advantage of the new features unlocked in each revision. Is it possible, assuming that I'm not talking out of my [censored], that you could just port across the code without rethinking the changes in obse 18/19 and taking advantage of them. Or does obse kind of force you to use it's features. Then again, i guess you could find a more efficient way of doing things within this obse.


I don't know. Keep us updated!!!

PROD.

@ tejon: yeah, you're right, balance I'm sure will need some work, but not have to be completely redone. Unless you really want to.


Well, they're backwards-compatible, so the scripts will work, but...

It's more this. I could just use them as-is, but that'd be silly considering the new features I have available to make it run much better.

Anyway, current state of things: my Oblivion install doesn't work (probably due to my borked DVD drive), and I've been too lazy/too busy to reinstall it.

Honestly, I'd suggest for you to get the current code finished, and worry about getting all the new systems after.

...But then again, I want this mod badly.

Kinda!

Partly, I just want to do different things with the engine than you do. IIRC, your end-user-ARES is intended as a supplement to the existing enchantment system; I plan to use it as a complete replacement, actually removing most of the vanilla magic items from the game.

The other part is that I'm working on a magic overhaul where compatibility is explicitly not a priority... even without OBME that means balance points are changing dramatically, and OBME lets me do some crazy-awesome stuff that invalidates some of the core concepts, so some affixes become invalid and others will be added.

I've got a nice sequence of projects worked out, each being a dependency for the next but independently useful in their own right. I just need the ARES back-end and OBME 1.1 to complete the foundation!

My response to this is multifaceted. One, my gut reaction is "ugh" - I mod primarily to tinker with all the neat toys, so restricting myself like that bores me. Sorry, not going to do that. Two, the new features allow the mod to work much better, which is generally desirable. Third, and most importantly, with a better back-end, the system is much more easily tested. This is pretty obviously important.