The best part about whether or not the CoC is simply crazy or actually IS Sheogorath is that it's completely up to the player.

Lets say that the CoC actually does become Sheogorath. It's entirely plausible for Bethesda to say that the new Sheo takes on all of the old's traits, including the preference for appearing as a friendly old gentleman with a questionable scottish accent. TES V comes along, and you would still be able to visit Sheo's shrine without feeling cheated because its in the image of Sheogorath they've always had.

Now, lets say the CoC actually just goes crazy. It's equally plausible that Sheogorath granted them the powers you gain in the Isles merely as a way to make the illusion convincing. It's not like any of the abilities you use in Cyrodil are entirely unheard of for an accomplished spellcaster to have mastered.

I've got to say though, it never even occured to me that the CoC was just nuts (well, nuttier than they already were for being a divine crusader and a dread agent of Sithis, but thats beside the point). Next game I start up I'm totally gonna assume it was all just an elaborate plot to make the CoC insane :thumbsup:

I Tought that somethimes too haha!

I believe that you really are the succesor of Sheogorath, at least, when i play with my main PC i act like i rule the entire place and kill the citizens as i please haha.

It's happened before.

What avatar are we talking about?

After reading Mankar Cameron's post, i remembered that haskill did say something about you being a sort of steward for the realm, and not the actual mad god. this would make more sense as i thought it was quite stupid that the champion of cyrodill would also be the daedric god of madness. also you would obviously be very powerful and probably immortal as a god, which you are not when you "become sheogorath"

Exactly. And what if you did the main quest AFTER the Shivering Isles quest?

Im just wondering how you guys know that the CoC was the avatar of Shezzar? Where did it say this? Is it not possible that the CoC just did these things by himself without being someone else?

The Divine Crusader must be an avatar of Shezarr. Pelinal Whitestrake was, and so is his successor. As for being Sheogorath, I'm pretty confident the CoC does become Sheogorath, and since SI is an expansion it was designed for most people to play after completing the main quest of the original game. The CoC does not completely mantle Sheogorath overnight. By the end of the Greymarch, he had mantled Sheogorath enough to take his place, but as Jyggalag said, it is unsure what will become of the CoC. He is a mortal and he has the throne of Sheogorath at the end of the Greymarch, but he is not yet a god. With time, it is implied that he will come to earn his immortality. It's not as if Haskill can find anyone else to be Sheogorath.

Also, as the Nerevarine, was the Nerevarine not him/herself? He/She was not Nerever himself. A Shezarrine also has a personality of its own.

Yes, CoC is (or rather will be) Sheogorath. Its mantling 101. http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1096021-arden-sul.

Which is what happened. That's mantling. This isn't rocket science. I'm blasting off.

Just read Lady N's essay in the lore section and iv'e changed my mind, the COC isn't crazy.

The coc isn't crazy? Then they can't be Sheogorath. Good God, it's one of the easiest solve-me's in the whole, damn franchise.

:rolleyes: Okay, you caught me with bad word usage. Okay, he's not some loony who thinks he's Sheogorath, while Sheogorath stands over him and laughs, while having tea with his pinky toe.

Now stop your semantics!

The essay (Which was a very good read, BTW), is operating under the assumption that the events in the Shivering Isles were, in fact, real and not a figment of the CoC's imagination.

This doesn't nullify the arguement that the CoC actually IS crazy, however.

One of the reasons I thought the SI questline was absolutely brilliant is the fact that it is open to interpretation, and deciding which outcome happened to YOUR CoC really doesn't impact on the lore either way.

So it doesn't matter if you believe the CoC is an avatar or Sheogorath or just some nutjob, if you believe one outcome is bad writing or is a nice twist, or whatever. They're both essentially unverifiable outcomes.

That's awful reasoning.


It depends on Jyggalag's existance.

From what I understand of Shezarrines, they are basically mortals with unusual powers/traits who serve as champions for mankind(and sometimes, enemies of mer). The Divine Crusader(the second one) fits into that position, as no mere mortal can do what the CoC did as the Divine Crusader. He even accomplished what a previous Shezarrine failed to do. I don't see why the CoC isn't a Shezarrine.

He killed an Aylied. Am I missing something? Sure, he was a strong Aylied, but being strong enough to kill one doesn't make you divine. I mean, by this reasoning, all past heroes are Shezarrines. They're uber powerful. I mean, this must mean that Umaril himself is a Shezarrine, being so strong. I just don't get it.

Shezzarine means being an embodiment/reincarnation (can't find the correct word, gah) of Shezar. While this does typically mean you're powerful, tricky, and fighting against elves, those are just the symptoms, not the cause of the state.

I'm not going to comment on the CoC as a Shezzarine, as I've not decided. It could be true, in my mind, especially if he is also Sheggy/Jyggy.

As for "the CoC went insane and imagined everything," there is really no way to prove/disprove it. As there is no precedent or strong indication that it was, I don't think its what happened. That and I think its lame and a copout.

I know what a Shezarrine is, I've just not heard any good reasoning behind it.

CoC went crazy... Sheogorath led him into the isle, about when you were a duke he made you go mad... just that simple

Nothing about a Daedric Prince is "Simple".

I still can't imagine why my female PC will change her "gender" (yes, I know, daedric princes don't have an specific gender, but they have an appearance) to become a guy with a beard.

Maybe in future games they will avoid creating a face for Sheogorath, and they will give him a helmet, or maybe people don't know that Sheogorath doesn't look like they think and his statues are still there with the same appearance (even though that Sheogorath could change the appearance of the statues, but...). Of course, I think that this will set to player's imagination.

Or... maybe TES:V takes place in other timeline, so the CoC never became Sheogorath.

We will see Sheogorath again. Your PC is now insane. You don't understand her entirely. She changed gender... to be more insane? :shrug:

This is what annoys me about the SI story, too. Various people will be angry at Sheogorath when next we see him, because thier characters aren't anything like him, even with the reasoning behind it. I swear, Bethesda WANTS to be flamed.

But to name a few;

• Drastically reduce the land size (Daggerfall-Morrowind)
  
• Drastically reduce character skill benefit (Morrowind-Oblivion)
  
• Drastically go against Lore (Oblivion-TESV)?
  
• Drastically reduce skills to Melee, Mage, Stealth (TESVI) ???

Yeah it is, it reads like an M Night Shyamalan script. :yuck:

Morrowind went more against the lore of Daggerfall than changing the appearance of Sheggy. Oblivion went more against the lore of Morrowind than changing the appearance of Sheggy. "Shegorath looks like a bearded dude" is hardly lore, much less some important thing that needs to be preserved. Besides, we never actually see Sheogorath - we see statues, likely built hundreds of years ago. If you're going to flame Bethesda over that, you might as well not buy the game at all.

I'm not addressing the others since they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The CoC did not become Sheogorath - he became the Lord of the Shivering Isles. Two separate titles and states of being. If I die and you inherit my house... does that make you become me? No.

That's how I view it.