And thats dumbing down the game to placate people that cant make a build. What TES vet doesnt have some idea of what build he will play?

Yes. You don't have to assign a number to your strength attribute. That's because you're a living, breathing human being rather than a computer representation. Computers, like it or not, are limited to representing things like strength with NUMBERS.

Your strange hostility to that fact makes it no less a fact.

Er... what will you do when you'll have to spend two hours deciding wich perk will be better to choose?

I'm sorry but I really can't understand that point of view... This (TES) is a game, so it has rules, it's a rpg, so it has character customization, it's a GOOD rpg, so it has a deep lore behind... The problem was that you had to read the instructions, some info in internet and the game mechanics explained on the manual? I started playing TES with Morrowind, I read the manual, I read the in-game description of all when choosing my race, skills and birthsign, and I hardly could missunderstand anything or chose "the wrong skills"; hell, I really enjoyed that... I did the same with Oblivion... Really, I can't see the point of being hard to choose the way to level with stats... Really, I can't.

I'm agree with the "I play-it improves" way, I've always been; I'm just a little upset with the "jack-of-all-trades" feeling that Skyrim is giving.

Oh please! The test of whether the game is dumbed down will be in the difficulty you'll have getting through it, not in wasting time trying to decide how you want your character to start out as. And you'll still be able to have an idea of what kind of build you want to play, if you're partial to melee you'll swing your sword more. It's going to make absolutely no difference in determining how your character ends up as in the long run by not starting with some distinct class that you wasted several hours over. In fact, you might find that your character ends up evolving in ways that you would never have expected, and in a very good way, than he/she would have if you had that rigid focus in mind from the beginning.

What if the idea changes during gameplay?

I played the same character in every TES game but they still played differently. I created a Nightblade-like mage-thief but all of them played different. In Daggerfall I concentrated on the stealth and combat aspects, in Morrowind the stealth and magic aspects, in Oblivion the magic and combat aspects.

I don't know how this class will work in Skyrim, should I learn more Alteration or Illusion? I'll only know when I play it.

Taking away the choice and consequence of making a build, not even having to think about it, is dumbing it down to placate newbs.

You have it all wrong, it was Oblivion that had that jack-of-all trades approach. What was the difference between a pure Warrior who ended up at level 30 with all it's attributes maxed, and quite a few of it's skills, and a Spellsword who had the same thing happen? Virtually none. With the new system relying heavily on perks, you'll make choices that enhance the overall approach you want to take and will end up with alot more differentiation in the end.

I never had a character with more than 3 attributes maxed by level 30 (and usually it was just my two majors). Probably why I stopped leveling at 30.

You'll have over 280 perks you have to decide on, how is that taking away choice? And if you choose to focus on your Fireballs for a level, your sword arm won't be quite as good. That's a consequence. So you're just clutching at straws with that statement, it's nothing more than meaningless hyperbole.

No, its basically for people that play like an action game and not an RPG. They do what they want, not what their build would do. they do whats practical, or most powerful, not what their build is.

Exactly! And this is what really worries me about Skyrim . . . that this game is being streamlined for all the impatient gamers, who cannot be bothered to put any real thought into character creation (other than what their character looks like). The same thing happened with Oblivion, with all the hand-holding that was added to and totally ruined the game (such as the quest arrow, because too many players whined that Morrowind's quests were too hard). Too many people want games where they don't have to think . . . and that's a real shame.


And your carrying capacity in is measured in units of weight . . . such as NUMBER of pounds. The Strength stat number is used in an equation (built into the game) to determine your carrying capacity, and then your percentage of encumbrance is determined by that number. Most of my modding involves number crunching . . . because numbers are a major part of these games.


Because Todd stated that they based a LOT of Skyrim on what they learned when they made Fallout 3 . . . such as the leveling/scaling system. You start Fallout 3 at Level 1, and your get a perk on every Level . . . but you don't start out with a perk . . . you have to wait until you level up. Perks are rewards/bonuses for leveling up . . . so you expect a perk just for making it through Skyrim's vigorous character creation?

Ah, those happy first few hours on Vvardenfell..
Getting lost around Seyda Neen, dying of mudcrabs, freaking out at the sight of a rat.
I went to bed too late that night, and got up too early. I knew I had found a great game.
The scope, the learning curve, working at working things out, it was brilliant.
Why people want everything handed to them and no possibility of failure Ill never know, it just makes things bland and boring.

This ×1000 is how I feel. You want God of War, go play that.
This current sentiment of all action no thought isn't a surprise though.
Why should players have to read & think when they can just be told what button to press? smh

That's a load of crap. If you level up and you have to decide between a perk that will improve your combat skills or your magic skills or your stealth, you're going to stop and think about how you want to play your character to evolve. If you want to play a some sort of thief, you'll go for the stealth perk for instance. You're just not wasting time at the first part of the game trying to map out a strategy in a game you'll know nothing about. You'll make those decisions as you go along, and have a better idea of how things actually work.

We'll agree to disagree then.

I started with Daggerfall. I also didn't know what to expect. I didn't invest a whole lot of time into trying to divine what would be the "right" character, but instead just went with some combination of gut instinct and whim. And got my ass handed to me. I went through that a couple of times before I started to really get a handle on how all the game mechanics worked and what I could expect in the world. When Morrowind came out, I had to go through it again a bit, but not as much because I was already familiar with TES, if not with that specific game. Ditto Oblivion.

But here's the thing - I enjoyed that process. That's a basic part of what I play games for - to figure out how they work and what I need to do to be good at them. I like the challenge because I like mastering the challenge.

I'm heartened to see, by these threads, that I'm not the only one who appreciates challenge. I'm more discouraged in the long run though, not only by the number of people who wail and moan about it as if it's some sort of intolerable burden, but also, and more, by the fact that Beth seems determined to cater to their desires for a game rather than ours.

Not that I'm particularly surprised though.....

I know whether or not I can lift something that weighs 300 lbs, I can't, or if it's only 50. I can. I don't need to have some Strength value in order to determine that, it would be completely meaningless. So why should a computer game be any different? Immersion is a large factor in these games, why not have your ingame character more closely resemble how you see yourself in real life? I didn't start out in life sitting down and planning how my life was going to evolve, I just did it and figured things out as I went along. I fail to see why some fantasy life I may lead should be any different.



Key word, "LOT". Not all. It's not going to be just a Fallout clone. And even if we don't get a starting perk, it doesn't sound like it will take too long to gain our first one. In the meantime we'll still have the racial perks and our skill selections. After all, going by your logic, since Fallout allowed to us to put some initial points into our skills, so will Skyrim, along with some points to put into our H/M/S attributes. So regardless, there will still be an opportunity for character development at first, it's just that the process won't be as time consuming as it was in Oblivion.

You have to have stats in an RPG. If your character was "more like you" then you would no longer be role playing. Hence the RPG.

Obviously not or else Bethesda wouldn't have been able to get rid of them.



Man, what a odd statement to make. My character is nothing more than a computer generated avatar in a computer generated world. No matter what I do, or how realistically the game is designed, I will never be doing anything but role playing. It's not like I can actually climb into my monitor and live in the game. If you fail to see that distinction, then you need to turn your computer off and involve yourself in real life more.

Beth didn't get rid of stats?

I think there is still choice and consequence inthe new system. You can make a jack of all trades character and not have access to higher level perks. I usually have a plan of where I want my characters to go. I either play as a stright mage ( usually evil power hungry) or as a paladin (good) focusing on longsword, shield, restoration and speechcraft (or whatever it is now). My paladin does not have the full rangeof weapons to it but can heal without potions and is generally well likes by the populace. I think both characters will pan out well with the new system.

Now, you're just contracting yourself. No doubt there are still stats somewhere, you need them to determine certain calculations like how much weight you can carry etc.. But they'll be hidden in the background and won't play any direct role in your character's development. Having a bunch of numbers and statistics at your disposal isn't important to playing an RPG. How you involve yourself within the game world is, as well as the choices you make as to how your character will evolve. That last part can easily be handled solely through the use of perks.

There will still be displayed stats in Skyrim. Without stats you have no RPG.

On topic: I liked being able to name my class, I'll miss that if its not in.

I like a good challenge as much as the next guy, but can it not be that Bethesda has simply given up?

They themselves say that their biggest problem is that they have no control over what players do and I think Morrowind and Oblivion has proven it's really difficult to balance such great games.

Odd, since you're the one that keeps insisting that your "computer generated avatar" doesn't need a number to represent his strength since you don't need a number to represent yours.

You might at least pick an argument and try to stay with it.