There will still be displayed stats in Skyrim. Without stats you have no RPG.

On topic: I liked being able to name my class, I'll miss that if its not in.

Having a bunch of numbers and statistics at your disposal isn't important to playing an RPG. How you involve yourself within the game world is

There will still be displayed stats in Skyrim. Without stats you have no RPG.

There will only be Health, Magicka and Stamina, plus your 18 skills. Everything else that may exist will be hidden and only used for calculation purposes.

Odd, since you're the one that keeps insisting that your "computer generated avatar" doesn't need a number to represent his strength since you don't need a number to represent yours.

You might at least pick an argument and try to stay with it.

You ever try a pen & paper RP game? If you did you would understand why numbers matter.

So why did you say Beth got rid of staats then?

For crying out loud, you're the one who's singing the blues because Bethesda got rid of your precious Attributes. Keep your arguments straight, you're accomplishing nothing by trying to twist someone else's meaning.

It boils down to them removing or merging things for people that thought TES was too complex before.

I started with Daggerfall. I also didn't know what to expect. I didn't invest a whole lot of time into trying to divine what would be the "right" character, but instead just went with some combination of gut instinct and whim. And got my ass handed to me. I went through that a couple of times before I started to really get a handle on how all the game mechanics worked and what I could expect in the world. When Morrowind came out, I had to go through it again a bit, but not as much because I was already familiar with TES, if not with that specific game. Ditto Oblivion.

But here's the thing - I enjoyed that process. That's a basic part of what I play games for - to figure out how they work and what I need to do to be good at them. I like the challenge because I like mastering the challenge.

I'm heartened to see, by these threads, that I'm not the only one who appreciates challenge. I'm more discouraged in the long run though, not only by the number of people who wail and moan about it as if it's some sort of intolerable burden, but also, and more, by the fact that Beth seems determined to cater to their desires for a game rather than ours.

Not that I'm particularly surprised though.....

I know whether or not I can lift something that weighs 300 lbs, I can't, or if it's only 50. I can. I don't need to have some Strength value in order to determine that, it would be completely meaningless. So why should a computer game be any different? Immersion is a large factor in these games, why not have your ingame character more closely resemble how you see yourself in real life? I didn't start out in life sitting down and planning how my life was going to evolve, I just did it and figured things out as I went along. I fail to see why some fantasy life I may lead should be any different.

Key word, "LOT". Not all. It's not going to be just a Fallout clone. And even if we don't get a starting perk, it doesn't sound like it will take too long to gain our first one. In the meantime we'll still have the racial perks and our skill selections. After all, going by your logic, since Fallout allowed to us to put some initial points into our skills, so will Skyrim, along with some points to put into our H/M/S attributes. So regardless, there will still be an opportunity for character development at first, it's just that the process won't be as time consuming as it was in Oblivion.

What on earth are you carrying on about? If you're going to argue a point I make, at least make sense.



This is not a P&P, it's a computer based one. And the computer can deal with all of that in the background without your intervention. There's no need for the player to be forced into some spreadsheet exercise simply to play a game.

1.) Computer programs use numbers to do nearly everything. 95% of the Game Settings are just numbers. There is no getting around this. Without numbers to represent everything in games, there would be no computer games. Even if you cannot see or set your amount of Strength, there is a number that represents your Strength.

2.) I was an NCAA athlete just a few years ago, so I know first hand that real life athletes are VERY aware of numbers . . . they know how much they can lift, how fast they can run a certain distance . . . which requires you to know the distance (a specific number) and in time (another specific number). My point is that, even in real life, numbers represent our abilities . . . even when you do not know the number they still exist (athletes just have to be more aware of the numbers).

Because you cannot put ANY initial points into your skills . . . you can only distribute 40 points in your S.P.E.C.I.A.L.s (FO3's attributes).

You seem to have, unsurprisingly, completely missed the point while avoiding giving an answer once again.

Of course, but all that is based on some real values, like actual pounds lifted, so many feet per second etc. It's not like an athlete has an Agility score of 50 that provides the basis of his ability in a particular area. Having attribute scores are nothing but arbitrary values that only serve any real purpose in background calculations within the game. They're not at all necessary in order for a player to simply engage in a game.

But it's a little pointless to smash or vent about something you only have 65-75% of the details on... Don't you think so?

Do you know what arbitrary means?

If you have a point to make please do so. I don't have time for some feeble ad hominem attack. If you have no logical arguments to make to support your viewpoint, don't even bother posting.

Agreed. Far too many people are carrying on as if the sky is falling simply because there will be no more attributes to deal with. Yet they have absolutely no way of knowing how that is going to translate in the game. Personally, I thought the Oblivion system was such a horrendous mess that anything will be better than what they had in that game, and I can certainly see some of the merits of not having to deal with attributes at all. So I'm more than willing to give it the benefit of the doubt until I've been proven otherwise.

You didn't get to distribute individual skill points one at a time via the GOAT. Once again you've posted a toothless arguement.

Take a break & get some detailed facts straight.

What difference does that make? The bottom line is that you got to distribute 45 points into skills that you chose. Whether it was one at a time or a bunch at once is completely irrelevant.



Stop ignoring the bigger picture to support your argument. My facts are straight, you're the one who's twisting things.

My point is numbers are not arbitrary (whether you use numbers, letters, tiers, etc. none are arbitrary). Arbitrary doesn't mean what you think it means.

Of course, but all that is based on some real values, like actual pounds lifted, so many feet per second etc. It's not like an athlete has an Agility score of 50 that provides the basis of his ability in a particular area. Having attribute scores are nothing but arbitrary values that only serve any real purpose in background calculations within the game. They're not at all necessary in order for a player to simply engage in a game.

So explain to me what the GOAT was then. Or are you simply trying to conveniently ignore that part of the game for argument's sake?