Again, you dont know what arbitrary means. Just look it up dude. plus you never needed a calculator in any TES game.

Your viewpoint is purely semantics. You distributed skill points pure and simple. And if this is your idea of a logical argument, then I'm just wasting my time discussing anything with you. In fact this whole thread is a waste of time, since it quite obviously is being dominated by people who aren't even willing to open their minds to anything new.

ar·bi·trar·y/??rbi?trerē/Adjective
1. Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
2. (of power or a ruling body) Unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority

Google ftw

So to you details are semantics... it's all so clear now.... :rofl:

Irrelevant, it was still part of the whole character creation routine in the initial tutorial area.



And where exactly am I supposed to have selected my attributes in Oblivion? I was able to select my race and appearance, the game did everything else for me. I had no direct control over how anything was distributed, that was all predetermined. So how does that make attributes a valuable part of character creation exactly? The only choices I had other than my race and appearance was my birth sign and my class.

You know, you people can complain about the loss of attributes all you want, but it's a done deal. Nothing is going to change that at this point. So I strongly suggest that you just buck up and deal with it, or forget about the game altogether. Because all you're accomplishing in threads like these is wasting yours and everyone else's time.

This point was completely lost in the middle of that arbitrary discussion.

The proposed system, as yet still unknown to us (until we play the game), should actually be more involving and more in line with what an RPG should be. There is no need to adhere to the limitations of P&P number crunching anymore.

Thank you, it's nice to see that I'm not alone in the wilderness. I personally like the idea of the direction they're taking with this approach. Of course, how well it works out in the actual game remains to be seen. But as far as I'm concerned, anything will be better than that horrid mess in Oblivion. That had to be the absolute worst leveling scheme I've ever seen in an RPG. Thankfully there were mods available so I could bypass it completely.

Numbers dont limit, they add. There's never been a need for number crunching in a TES. You didnt need to be a calculus wiz to succeed in a TES game. This whole fallacy of stats and attributes being some complex hard to decipher system is getting ridiculous. Most of the problems from Oblivion's system in particular was level scaling. Morrowinds was the fact that you became a god at level 20 or even sooner. The latter problem is similar to the problem in the later Fallouts.

Then what's the problem with getting rid of them then, or at least having them just in the background somewhere. If they weren't really contributing anything to the game in first place, then it's not an issue to remove them.

They were contributing to the game. They were attributes.

Man, talk about an empty argument. That's like saying my car is red, that must make it go faster.

?

You know what attributes did right? You've played an ES game before?

Yes, they acted like middle men. You increase your Alchemy, Conjuration and Mysticism skills and you can increase your Intelligence. This in turn increases your Magicka pool. All Bethesda is doing with this new system is removing that middle stage, streamlining the process. So using any of your magical skills will have a direct effect on your Magicka, rather than having to go through some convoluted mathematical process to achieve the same results. That makes a hell of alot more sense to me than Oblivion's system that's for sure. I've never understood how casting Illusion spells is supposed to affect your Personality, or using Destruction increases Willpower. There's absolutely no logic to it. Having all magic skills effect Magicka directly does though. Granted there are a couple of areas that are a bit hazy as to how they will be replaced, like Carry Weight and Speed, but overall those numbers weren't really needed in order to determine your overall abilities. They only added an unnecessary layer of complexity that will be removed.

Point in fact it is you that are wasting your time. You continue to attempt to project your opinion upon other forum members through sheer volume of posts with little to no factual substance. If you feel like constructive criticism is such a waste of time you are free to leave.
You'll probably still be here weeks from now arguing with the same people, expecting sudden converts to your antilogic. Good luck :biggrin:

The problem here is not that implementing attributes is right or wrong, it's the way you do it that counts. The fact is that Bethesda never enhanced attributes. On the contrary the best implementation was probably on Arena, where there weren't skills, then skills have become more important at the attributes expense. There are other RPGs were attributes and skill live together and both have a meaning in the game structure (where attributes have a huge impact on the game), but attributes in TES (except Arena) never counted that much. So, insted of bringing them to a major level, they simply removed them. It's their choice, but you might agree or not.

This. I'm happy with a game that will give me hours of playtime and lot's to do.

Amen.

They are limiters, not middle men. A character with a lower Intelligence and Willpower is a less-efficient mage than one with a higher Intelligence and Willpower, despite their being equally skilled. They allow who a character is to influence how well a character does things. Many players like to start off knowing exactly who their character is and what his limitations are. The role player examines who his character is before deciding what his character does, and attributes provide further definition to a character. Should the character do what comes easiest for him and perhaps take up the blade, or should he take the more challenging path and become the mage he ultimately wishes to be?

Irrelevant, only because you totally ignored my point.
Did you accept the results of your G.O.A.T.? Or did you, like most FO3 players, choose to distribute the skill points on your own?
My point was that in Skyrim we will no longer have a choice . . . we will be stuck with whatever the gameplay [FO3's G.O.A.T.] decides is the appropriate point spread for our characters (because too many gamers are apparently not capable of doing this themselves).


You'll likely also view my reply as "irrelevant" . . . but I'll give this one more shot, and try to explain this in a way that may help you and others here understand why so many of us are concerned with the way that Skyrim's character build is being streamlined.

In Oblivion you didn't distribute attribute points until later in the game (when you select your Class, and every time that you leveled up) . . . this was the opposite of FO3, where you distribute your attribute points in the very beginning of the game. And then distributed just skill points (and picked a perk) when you leveled up.
In Oblivion, the game determined your initial attribute points, based on the race and gender that you CHOSE to play. In Fallout 3 you didn't have any choice on which race you played . . . since there was only one playable race (and there were no stat differences for male of female characters) . . . so the game allowed you to just set up your own personal character build (distributing your 40 attribute points).

In Oblivion, besides your choice of gender and race, you also got to select your own Birth-sign (from 13 different ones), which gives you constant effect Attribute bonuses, or constant effect Magicka bonuses.
In Skyrim these are all determined for you (more hand-holding, so that the player won't be able to make a "bad" choice, and "ruin" his character build).

In Oblivion you also got pick your Class (from 21 Standard Classes, or you could create your own Custom Class).
You are given a suggested Class, which was determined by what skills you had used up to that point.
This was done in Fallout 3, by answering a series of questions [the G.O.A.T.] . . . with the result being your suggested skill point spread (basically your Class, although it wasn't called that), but you could also do your own point spread (your custom "class").

In Oblivion, classes further define your character by allowing the player to distribute 7 skill points and 2 attribute points . . . any way you want.
In Skyrim you are stuck with what the game determines is best for you.
How many players here, who played Oblivion, were happy with the Class that the game picked for them?
How many players decided to select their own Class?

TES games have always allowed the player to create their only character build . . . with a LOT of freedom in what we want our character to be. In Skyrim we will be MUCH more limited. And that is an issue for me.

G.O.A.T. in Skyrim? I thought Skyrim will let us build our characters exactly how we play them. That's the opposite of G.O.A.T. in fact. Maybe I missed some new info, then I apologize.

And I thought that my previous post was very clear on this . . . apparently not.

No, there isn't a G.O.A.T. in Skyrim . . . that was just the specific method that was used in Fallout 3 to create what was essentially your character's Class (your initial skill points distribution).

With Morrowind and Fallout 3 (and Fallout NV), this was done by answering a series of questions, and then you were give a suggested skill point spread (your class) that was based on your answers. In Oblivion, this was determined by what skills you had used up to that point . . . which is the method used in Skyrim.

My point was that with Morrowind, Oblivion, and with Fallout . . . you are given a SUGGESTED class (based on your answers, or on your game play) . . . but that you are not stuck with this suggested class, but are free to select any class, or to create your own custom class (distribute your own initial stats).

It is my understanding that very few gamers used the suggested class/point-spread, but selected their own, based on what they wanted their character to be like.

In Skyrim you don't have a choice. You class/point-spread is not suggested to you . . . it is just assigned to you. You no longer have a choice.

Uh... what?
You don't start out with anything, other than your racial powers/perks/attributes/stuff, those are not more "determined" for you than it was before


Calling the starting skills in Fallout 3 as "class" is a bit too much. It would make sense in Fallout 1 and 2 where points added to tag skills counted twice, but in 3 it's just a head start, you can raise the other skills too at the same rate.


Wrong.

The game doesn't decide what skills you use, YOU use them, thus raise them. It's not at all different from Oblivion, you could just as well raise other skills without any problem, it just wouldn't add to your overall level, that is why people could use the leveling abuse.

But we are responsible for that. If I choose to use a bow, then using bows is my skill. I see this as my choice. If you see this as game's choice even then game is still right. Were you expecting the ability to choose some majors and go with minors or vice-versa? Those are history.

I think this is the prevalence of us who choose custom classes.

I give up with this thread! :banghead:

There are WAY too many fans here, who refuse to consider anything that is contrary to what Todd says.

Skyrim doesn't allow your to select your Class, and Birthsigns were removed from the game.

All Class is in Oblivion was your initial stat point spread. The standard classes are a defined set of skill points and attributes that were given a name. With custom classes you distribute your own points, and pick your own class name.

In Fallout 3, after completing the G.E.C.K., your get to either accept the games suggested defined set of skill points (which game with an occupational name), or you can distribute your own points. This is essentially Fallout 3's Class.

The game DECIDES your skill point spread based on what skill you have used up to that point . . . which is EXACTLY the way that your SUGGESTED Class was determined in Oblivion.

The only difference is that with Skyrim you are stuck with what the game DECIDES, AND that all level up skill point distributions are also DECIDED by the game.

Most Oblivion players were NOT happy with the game's suggested Class . . . which was based on the skills that they had CHOSEN to use.

What makes you so confident that you are going to be so happy with how Skyrim determines your skill point spread?