It looks like the path that Elder Scrolls is taking by removing attributes, classes, birthsigns, etc.. is to start your character as an Average Joe, and build him based on skills. To some extent, it’s always been this way, but now it’s much more pronounced. Some may like it, but I don’t -- because I don’t think everyone is built the same. Some people are smart, some are dumb, some are clumsy, some are ninety pound weaklings with giant brains. While you can compensate for handicaps in your basic genetic makeup through skills (built from experience), you are usually stuck with those fundamentals throughout your life. Experience may make you better with a sword, but not make you into the incredible hulk (strength = 100).

The reason I believe Howard and his team decided to axe attributes in favor of skills and feats is because the way attributes were implemented in previous Elder Scrolls games were essentially the same as skills -- when you level / gain experience, you increase them. I don’t believe this is how attributes were originally intended in pen and paper RPG’s (at least, not in D&D). Attributes were fundamental characteristics of your PC (player character) that DO NOT CHANGE OVER TIME / experience (more or less.. enchanted items or magic buffs could provide increases). When you rolled your character, you tweaked the numbers on your base attributes (i.e; adding to strength, removing from intelligence) to build yourself the character that you wanted to role play. By making yourself a super-strong guy, you have to compensate by taking away from something else (i.e; be slower and dumber), and live with those handicaps throughout the game. Ideally, the bonuses and handicaps should make a significant impact on your character no matter their level (although skills should also have a significant impact). I believe that the best system should have both skills (experience-based bonuses) and attributes (call them “genetic” bonuses and handicaps).

For example, by increasing your strength to eight or nine, you would gain a x1.5 modifier to your base damage, be able to wear heavy armor with no encumbrance penalties, bash chests, etc... But by increasing it, you would then have to take away a point or two from some other attribute, like intelligence, and suffer some effects like not being able to read certain higher level scrolls, or talk to people like an ogre.

Say what you want about not liking attributes or classes or numbers and character sheets -- but don’t tell me you are “revolutionizing” the genre by getting rid of them.

Oh, and status-bars (i.e; health, mana, stamina) are not attributes or skills -- they are something else entirely.

:facepalm:

If you don't like it, don't make a bigass post about it; just don't play the game.

I can see what you mean. While removing preset things other than race, it does limit it from a roleplay perspective and give a bit less realism, since the person will have been around before, but I think from a gameplay perspective it is beneficial. I mean what's the point in the game if you wanted to roleplay a character who was already a master of several skills? They start them off at the same values so that people can start from the beginning and work up, and so that you don'tend up stuck with some skills or whatever that you realise you don't want to specialise in.

I can see your perspective but it's sort of a have your cake and eat it too situation.

I never get tired of reading attribute threads... :rolleyes:

Problem is this is the one big thing that bothers me about the game. Why not give the developers some feedback from a diehard RPG fan?

I kind of agree with the OP.
But, sadly there is nothing that can be done about it. Well except mods.

To be honest I think that attributes are a nightmare, and I'm glad that they are gone. No more level grinding. :celebration:

Wouldn't it have been better if they fixed it and made it into good working system, instead of just throwing it away like that?

I didn't say anything about starting them with skills. I wanted them to start out with mixed attributes -- (i.e strength 7, int 3, dex 5) which effect gameplay, but can compliment skills (or be detrimental, if low).. Those attributes would not change over the course of the game.

Move along nothing to see here but yet another attribute thread.

as long as theres lots to do, great environment creatures, exploration doesn't bother me

Sorry, I was just mainly thinking about what you said at the beginning, about people having inherent traits and that they're not all the same.

Don't blame attributes for the fact that the leveling system svcked in Oblivion. If you read my post, you would see that I'm arguing that attributes shouldn't have anything to do with leveling.

I see your point and taking away attributes seemed like a pretty daring leap to me, i'm a little sceptical but at the same time looking forward to perks and no more x5 multiplier crap...
I hope they pull character development off nicely.




These are among the worst kinds of posts on forums, disencouraging discussion when that's exactly what forums are for.

You guys know that spam posts in a topic doesn't further the discussion. It only causes a mod to come in and Rage for 10 seconds.

Now onto the topic. I have worries about this too as this system is basically going to have everybody start out at the same place with only minor differences that are race based. In Oblivion you were aloud a certain amount of customization at the beginning more so then Skyrim is sounding at the beginning. Oh my Imperial is a little bit smarter with magic well I'll give her the Mage Birthsign or +5 in Intelligence at the beginning. In Skyrim I can't really do that, the only thing I can do is focus on the magic skills that I want my Imperial to focus on like Restoration. The great thing about this system is how our characters are doing to be majorly different during and at the end of the game. We won't have 100 Attributes, 100 skills it's only going to be 100 skills but less available perks. I still think Attributes could've worked if they tweaked them around but it's not the end of the world, although any differences at the beginning between 2 different Imperials is now gone. They both will be the same when starting out unless Beth has some hidden nugget of info that they are hiding that tells us that you can tag a skill or 3 skills 10 points.

My biggest concern is based on what Todd stated in one of the interviews which I can't seem to locate at the moment) . . . so this is totally based on my memory, and on trying to recall exactly what he said. But his basic statement was that they didn't want a player to have any skill limitations, based on the character that they created at the beginning of the game.

This leads me to believe that there are no concrete differences between races, or genders . . . essentially the only real differences between characters is their appearance (and any starting differences can be compensated by perk or by just beefing up any lessor skills, by using them). And that is just wrong to me, because it greatly diminishes the RPG aspects. I want character attributes that are based on race and gender (and even age) . . . that are an essential part of your character . . . inherent strengths and weaknesses . . . that never change when you level up. That would add the most to replay value, since you would have a choice at least 20 very different character types (10 races * 2 genders) . . . instead of just cosmetic differences,

You are probably right, I just hated the way that attributes were a constant concern at the back of my mind while playing Oblivion. This was something that didn't happen in Fallout 3 with the special system. :thumbsup:

Indeed you did. My apologies. :foodndrink:

I have to agree, I think the only differences between the races at the beginning will be appearance, A certain starting bonuses in skills that a race is good at, like for example Bretons will have a higher starting Restoration skill then say an Imperial, and the greater and lesser powers that the different races will have. I think any differences between two different Imperials is gone at the beginning they'll probably start out the same which is ok but it's a flawed formula.

This depends entirely on the pnp game you're playing.

Some of them have stats that you can increase reasonably easily.

Some of them have increasing stats at a set rate ("modern" D&D, v3.5+, you end up getting a bunch of stat points over time. They pretty much threw the old system out the window. It's odd.)

Other games have stats that change plus immutable stats (Rolemaster, for one, had a - surprise! - somewhat complex system. On character creation, you rolled both your starting stats and your maximum potential for each of them. Every time you gained a level, you rolled to see how your stats shifted. They generally went up, but could decrease. And they could never go above your "potential". Also, stats rose faster the further they were away from your potential. Of course, that system also used a 1-100 scale, so it was easier to have varied number shifts than in a 3-18 system.)



Basically, there's alot of variance out there in how stats are dealt with, in pen-and-paper RPGs.

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I'm looking forward to the new system, because metagaming your major skills / stats / stat bonuses in Oblivion just distracted so much from the actual game. Yeah, there'll probably be some issues with the new system, but it's nice to see that they're trying new stuff. (I also have to believe that there's more to making a new character than "pick race, pick face". Because that'd be boring.

That was the main problem with Attributes in Oblivion they distracted you from playing the game. They should have been put in the background but that's in the past.

Even though i will be a Dunmer, now i can be a Nord without feeling partialy [censored]! :celebration:

Agreed, but also, I'm not just concerned with just the beginning of the game, and having attributes with little effect at the end. Ideally, they should be effect you over the course of the entire game.

Also, I don't think giving one skill points to allot in the beginning is going to cut it.. Skills and attributes are two different things -- one comes with experience, and the other comes from your background / genes. Attributes are what I want to allot at the beginning.

A bit random, but I guess it is a little related to this.
Has there been any word on birthsigns?

I'm looking forward to this new system and the new perks sound like they will add more replay value. I played through Oblivion and Morrowind countless times.




If you look in this screenshot you can see the Mage birthsign but thats just because its the magic trees so I have no idea if the birthsigns are still there

http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/93394/elder-scrolls-v/images/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-20110211094549550.html