Interesting paradox if the Daedra are supposed to represent stasis, whereas the Aedra and Nirn are change/transition...

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aedra_and_Daedra

This is what they represent, but in reality, the princes are highly static, and the aedra changed and caused a lot of change.

Change betrayed stasis and took its place.

I've come to the conclusion that Azura is just a vengeful ....let's not say poser, but she is good at it.
If she truly loved the Dunmer, she wouldn't have sent the Nerevarine to take out the Tribunal.You can't say she didn't know what would have happen to Vvardenfell if the Ministry of Truth fell, and it did (with Vivec's approval.) I've seen many people saying that she's the chessmaster.No way, she ain't that smart, as a fact Vivec outwitted her and destroyed his own city to win over his people again.
Nerevar was her fool, poor him.Fortunately my MW character hates her and sided with Vivec

Yes, yes, and yes.

if you love your pet, but it disobeys you, you punish it. That doesn't mean you don't still love it, but it needs to be disciplined.

I know Daedric Princes aren't supposed to "care" about mortals, but maybe Azura views mortals like we would view a pet dog or cat or goldfish? And the really smart/clever/loyals ones are rewarded with daedric artifacts.

Maybe the Princes help out mortals, but only if there is no risk involved. Azura didn't perceive any risk to herself when she helped try to guide Nerevarine incarnations. Of course, she didn't realize vivec had a chip on his shoulder the size of Jode. I think if she know that vivec had power (chim) to hurt/humiliate her and he wanted to exact vengeance for her meddling, then maybe she would have acted differently. Then again, it seems daedric princes sometimes like to gamble (such as Azura's and sheogorath's bet about that dunmer lady on that island in TESIII).

I'd say think of the daedra princes as the Greek gods; they're all 5 year olds with nuclear weapons. Also, they're more imperfect, no matter how powerful they are. Mortals have potential to be whatever they wish and act however they want. Daedra are shuffled into 1 personality.

Her actions didn't take out the Tribunal, they took out Dagoth Ur. In fact, Dagoth Ur pretty much ensured the Tribunal would weaken and eventually die. Although it seems Sheogorath had a hand in their demise too.

Of all the Daedra Princes, Azura feigns the most complexity but has the least.

Azura is on her own side and no others. If a person shares her intent AND gives her the "proper" compliments and worship, then she takes a shining to them. The instant they either do something she disagrees with or stop telling her how lovely she looks in that light, then she considers them an enemy. Look at Sul. He agreed to work for her, so she likes him, and makes him promises. When she realizes those promises, while his only hope, inconvenience her in some minor insignificant way she breaks them, and when he escapes anyway she torments him with visions that are just enough to tell him how much he's screwed but never enough to get him to safety.

Since the Nerevarine would topple the Tribunal, she helped him/her. If afterwards, the Nerevarine would try something counter to her desires, he/she would become a target of divine retribution.

I would argue against using the anology to the greek gods.

The greek gods were superhuman; humans with super powers. They weren't alien beings, they were human with the full range of human emotions and foibles. They were crafted in the image of man. They fell in love with mortals, honored mortals, fought beside them, returned loyalty with loyalty.

The daedric princes, on the other hand, are alien beings. Their motives are at times unknowable, and their full range of emotions is unknown (can they love? can they truly hate? can they feel sorrow? regret? joy?). They don't seem to have any loyalty or feel any binding obligation to help their worshipers (e.g. like a covenant). They play tricks on mortals, which is an aspect they share with greek gods and other mythological deities. However, most mythological deities are like the Aedra in terms of being part of the creation story involving the creation of mortals and the earth. The daedra are part of the creation story, but not of the creation itself...

...just my thoughts... :dead:

Azura is out for Azura, she's going to remember every little detail, and she forgives nothing. I'd say she used the Nerevarine and Dagoth Ur to get the last laugh on the Tribunal.

This is appropriate here.

Poor brainwashed cultist.

I think it's pretty accurate.
She cares that her cultists care.

Mehrunes Dagon : Yea, she may be mercyfull at the first sight . But the way she uses the Nerevarine as tool of vengence against the tribunal and Dagoth ur. The Tribunal has killed her dearest champion and she will not stop untill they are all dead as has the Nerevarine done.

Azuras is like poison, very delicate yet poisonous. Just look at the ghosts in the cavern of incarnate , those that failed to be her harm in her crusade agast the tribunal . I would not surprised if she would be in a secret aliance with Mehrunes Dagon. She would still win even with the destruction of Morrowind. The dumner will look upon old goods who they have forsaken.

Eh, I don't think she'd ally with Dagon. Who'd be around to worship her?

I believe Azura knew all along that the Tribunal was doomed from the start; the prophesies mention Dagoth Ur and the powers he brings to bear. She knew Dagoth Ur would return as a god and doom the Tribunal one way or another. If anything her machinations benefited the Tribunal more than if she had done nothing. If it weren't for the Nerevarine destroying the enchantments on the Heart, Dagoth Ur probably would have eventually killed the Tribunal. That Sheogorath rendered that point moot with his own machinations is another matter.

Edit: Welcome to the Forums. Have a http://images.uesp.net//c/c4/Fishystick.jpg!

Hellboy: She would benefit out of it . First she would have revenge on the nation that has chosen the false goods over her. And second the oblivion invasion destroyed the imperial presence and with it the goody goody nine devines. No mather how destructive Dagons blow would be it would be a return to old ways, that is either the worship of ancients or daedra. Either way Azura wins.
Hell Azura will benefit from the oblivion crisis by getting a part of the religious void created.


Crinsom paladin: Dagoth ur had to be destroyed because it was a mojour threat to Azuras kult on Morrowind anyway. It is more than generous to give the Nerevarine the oportunity to be at his side . Nerevar diecieved the sixt house . I will look out the book . It is about how house dagoth was abandoned by theyr alie Nerevar and then hunted down
I have to say that the Tribunal did not beneft very much since it has gone apart. And the agriement of Soatha sil with the daedra abolished.

Azura may have know that the Tribunal will eventually fall, but then why did she care to bring in so many champions(cavern of incarnate) when her revenge on the slayer if her dear Nerevar could be achieved by Dagoth ur. Actually she would have deal with both eventually, so she acomplished two goals with one blow.

Actually i thought about the bet between Azura and Sheorogath . Wonder if there could be a litle favour incluedet i litle madnees to the half goods here and there .

My chars have been always uterly hostile agaist the 6th house , however i do reconsider things, it may be actually something good, it would set the dunmer independent .

Thanks for the fishy stick

I still don't think you've worked out the question of who would worship her.
A deadric invasion would wipe out vast numbers of people, if not the entirety of Tamriel's population,
and Imperial imposition of Morrowind didn't stop deadric cult worship.
Sure she's petty, but she's too vain to be self-destructive.
And I'm not sure she wants revenge on Morrowind and the Dunmer race as a whole, as they're more likely than any to return to worshiping her.

She is a deadric prince, she can wait as long as it is necesary . Schemes are her tools.

My idea is that it would be a new beginig, start with a bunch of scared hopeless people, and she would be theyr guidance . Follow the god whose champion defated Dagoth ur and will lead the dumner out the theyr misery .. etc

The imperial cult did not prosecute, but it was a rising influence . Hlaalu was a open of the empire and supporting it means supporting the cult. This is the stuff that comes with aliance and trade new things. The mistress of plot surely don′t want′s to share faith of the dunmer.

They were destined to fail. Many fall but one remains. Several factors had yet to come into play when they lived, such as easy travel between Morrowind and Cyrodiil, laws allowing beliefs contrary to the Temple's teachings, and the Seven Curses. Dagoth Ur's awakening was a relatively recent development in Morrowind's history.

So the conclusion is what ? To send the nerevarine when it was convenient ? I bet if she waited i litle later till Urs golem would be functional the glory of the Azuras champion would way bigger.

I mean isn′t the principle of TES that profecy just a botle that can fill anyone that has enought skill to make it throu the trials and of course was chosen by Azura her self.

Yes many fall, but one remains, but the dead proto-nerevarines don′t exclude that anyone of them could have been the nerevarin .

I agree on the deterioration of the Tribunal, don′t tell that she did not care about killing those that killed Neravar while he was about to summon her.

If Azura wanted vengeance, she would have sat back and watched Dagoth blight the Dunmer and humiliate the Tribunal in front of their worshipers (because the Tribunal would be unable to stop Dagoth Ur). The best vengeance is to live a better life than the person you despise: watching the Tribunal weaken and fall to the Heart would have amused some of the other Princes.

Azura doesn't need the Dunmer's worship. If she needs people to love her, there's the entire Khajiit race.

The author of the book that the forum member mehrunes dagon quoted isn't stupid. She (the author) seems pretty tuned in to the nature of the various Daedric Princes she's served. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Invocation_of_Azura. She doesn't come across as a brainwashed cultist. Rather than blindly following Princes, she's seeking a Prince to fit her needs, and stops following them if they don't fulfill her criteria. Given that the author does have some moral fiber, I would presume that if she thought Azura didn't care for her worshipers and enjoyed seeing them suffer, the author would move on to another Daedric Prince to worship.

Azura is certainly no Mara, but for a Daedric Prince she's not half-bad. 1. She seems interested in mortals to some extent and doesn't necessarily view all of them as squishy disposable ants. 2. She doesn't seem to actively scheme and plot destruction (Boethiah, Mephala, Dagon, Molag Bal, etc.). 3. Most people who seek her out seem to have a positive experience (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Doors_of_Oblivion), though I don't doubt she - like the Tribunal, Aedra, and other Daedra - can be ruthless to those who cross her. The point is that she doesn't actively try to kill or corrupt you.

If she's pissed at the Tribunal, then maybe it's because she's pissed at what they did to her bff Nerevar. Also, it seems like Nerevar and the Tribunal made a contract/pact/pledge/oath to not use the Heart of Lorkhan for selfish purposes. If someone you trusted betrayed you, I bet you'd be pretty pissed, too.

Why try to make a Nerevarine? Like I said earlier, if she wanted vengeance, she could sit back and watch the Tribunal fall before Dagoth Ur and say "I told you so." The success of the Nerevarine ended the blight, ended the temptation to use the Heart (imagine if Mankor had got a hold of it), and reconciled the internal rift in the Dunmer religion (the heretics and the Temple). On the downside, it means the Tribunal can't tank up on their powers again, Red Mountain as a Tower is gone. If Vivec had Chim, I don't see why he didn't stop the Ministry of Truth from cratering Vvardenfell. Ultimately, the whole thing with Baar Dau was Sheogorath's meddling. If the "Pilgrim's Path" is accurate, then there would have been no Baar Dau ker-splat if there hadn't been a Tribunal (or if the Tribunal hadn't tried to take over Daeric Worship, which pissed Sheogorath off).

Azura isn't perfect, she doesn't fart sunshine and daisies and love. Maybe she can be a bit vindictive, but who isn't? Maybe she's manipulative, but so are the Tribunal. I'm just saying she's no worse than most of the other characters in the TES universe, and possibly a bit nicer than some of the other Daedric Princes are to mortals (Hircine thinks you taste lovely roasted and spitted like a hare).

I don't think that the Nerevarine in TESIII was the last chance to stop Ur. The crisis could have gotten much worse (more blight), and it could have extended on for another few hundred years. I mean, it's only in a relatively small radius that the blighted creatures escaped from the ghost fence, and the Tribunal lost the tools a long, long time ago (centuries)? Unlike Oblivion, I never felt any urgency. And if you want to talk about manipulation, recall that it was the Imperial Emperor who sent your character to Vvardenfell in the hope of being a political pawn to get dunmer and ashlander support. Or, maybe he (Uriel) knew your character fit the criteria to a T and knew the Blight would eventually become a threat - so, hey, kill two birds with one stone: take care of the Blight and get on the Dunmer's good side.

Wow thanks for a wonderfull insight and another point of view ,