His only mistake seems to be mistaking the Aedra for Daedra.

Unless your listening to the slightly demented mankar camoran(which I wouldn't advise)

It's because the English version of the lyrics are drilled so completely into your brain that it's nearly impossible for you to NOT hear it. I've been having the same problem.

Here's an advice. Sit there, with the lyrics directly in front of you, and mouth (or sing, if you prefer) along with it. Or listen to one of the slowed down versions.

Aside from mixing up a few names, Mankar presents a fairly coherent vision on the world. Were the followers of the Aedra believe that Lorkhan tricked the Aedra, Mankar holds it that the Aedra betrayed Lorkhan.

Though the Space-Time god thing doesn't come from Mankar, but from Micheal Kirkbride, http://www.imperial-library.info/content/etada-eight-aedra-eat-dreamer. And the unity of Lorkhan and Akatosh get reiterated in the Song of Pelinal.

"... and left you to gather sinew with my other half, who will bring light thereby to that mortal idea that brings [the Gods] great joy, that is, freedom, which even the Heavens do not truly know, [which is] why our Father, the... [Text lost]... in those first [days/spirits/swirls] before Convention... that which we echoed in our earthly madness. [Let us] now take you Up. We will [show] our true faces... [which eat] one another in amnesia each Age."

So which bits would you like to educate sean on?

Your Ideas Sir, are Akin to me.

So far "dragon" and "save the world slapped on your face" = LAME
Bethesda missed the Dragon train, now its overused if used as the others, as it seems so far.
If its: "slap dragons because their evil", i want to side the dragon and slap the world because actual writters svcks, and so my only hope is modders kick in fast to do something decent.

A lot of ifs, but if it come to that : TES=LAME.

He had a few other mix ups in there too, he honestly thought that Akatosh was a Daedric prince and Mundus was his plane. Among other things, i was just saying his lore was off by a little bit and he needed to be research.

On a different note, i can't wait to see what the full plot is of the main quest. Why everything is happening ect. From what i know so far it has me interested, way more than Oblivions when i read about it.

I really hope your right, but at the end of the day, i would be surprised if you are.

And for all that doesn t understand it clearly Its not about Morrowind is god, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is the greatest game in the history of the universe.. Its about a good story VS a [censored] straighforward morronicly black VS white, no option like like 95% of the RPG/MMORPG out there.

TES usually shined for interweaved plots, not straighforward path, moral choices, and not so sissy the "hero" is good settings.
If they are able to give me that i don t mind if it comes text based 1d game or fully modern whiz gangbang 3D.

A Geat plot keep people awake, a great image is considered comon after a couple of hours.
A book have no images, images have no replayability.

It is my personal opinion that both versions of shor being a deadra and also an aedra are true. It depends on the way that you look at it. In truth there are no aedra or deadra only ideas that mortals place upon them. Sure the aedra "gave up"(or where tricked to) parts of themselfs so differentiate themselfs from the deadra but they are all the same when you get right to the basics because they are embodiments of ideas and frankly shor is close enought to be considered either one. One thing I've learned in the elder scrolls is everything can be viewed from multiple angles with different conclusions and all the conclusions can be true. So in a since it can and most likely is true that lorkhan tricked the spirits considered aedra and they in turn betrayed him. As for lorkhan and akatosh being the same they are and they arn't.

This is where I'm a little bit sketchy. I believe they are one and same because without time there can be no space so they are so intertwined that at first glance you can't disinquish one from the other when you get to the basics. But yet time and space are in direct conflict with themself in the elder scrolls universe this is how they are different entities. My reasoning is they are in conflict with each other because in the elder scrolls universe space doesn't expand so in order to make room time(alduin) has to eat the previous world.

I think it's a little to early to make any conclusions. We've only seen a single song in a new language. It's not that different from Oblivion which started out with Daedric inscriptions.

I'm praying that there's nothing in there that we don't learn within the first hour or so of gameplay. I don't want massive main quest spoilers. I remember with Oblivion we learned that the name of the heir was Martin before launch, which turned out to be no big deal (you learn it almost as soon as you leave the tutorial), but it felt like a big deal.

You want to tell me that the wind, or the rock beside your foot, are only ideas? Or that that rock being blown up is also only an idea? And that the fact of the rock and the subsequent fact of the rock's blowing up are synonymous?

If so, I'm inclined to disagree.

Idk it has me a little more interested, and i have hope in Beth. You are correct in the fact that is what we started with for Oblivion, but we have possible civil war along with many ways this can go with Akatosh. And any other thing that may come up also. Much more interesting to me. Just my opinion thou.

Put crudely but exactly as I mean. In the elder scrolls universe everything is an idea and very few people have ever figured that out and those that did either acended or zero summed. You sir are not on the path to CHIM

Is it possible that Talos could help against Akatosh? Also i thought that Tiber Septim was an avatar of Lorkhan, so in that case would that make Lorkhan and Talos one in the same?
This could turn into another battle of Akatosh vs Lorkhan, or could Talos help mankind, mer, beast races.(if Lorkhan and Talos aren't the same)

Why thank you. I have no desire to be on the path to CHIM - a most unsavory condition it is.


Besides, CHIM can exist without everything in the universe being an idea. Furthermore, there is a difference between the metaphysical theory of everything being an idea at its deepest level (which is of course only one (merish) take on creation, and almost moot when taken with magick's potential to reality) and the much more mundane theory of everything being a mere idea, a mortal overlay (as you'd posit the Aedra and Daedra to be). The term 'equivocation' might be in order.

PeRhaps its no coincidence that the lyrics seem to be in english & the dragon language.. Maybe the song is supposed to be like those pictures wheRe you can see either two faces or a vase. If its intentional, hats off to beth.

To me they sounded like complete gibberish till someone mentioned they heard english words, so perhaps its just the power of the mind to try to find familiar patteRns, like seeing pictures in the clouds.

Sorry to go back a couple of pages, but I think a reply is necessary about UESP's Lore pages.



That's slightly outdated now. We always give stronger credence to in-game sources than out-of-game sources, but the latter can be included as long as they are clearly marked as such. For instance, our article on the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Septim Dynasty (better and more detailed, incidentally, than anything else available on the internet) uses an OOG source for Martin Septim's mother's name.

Many of our Lore articles are very bad at the moment, and I don't dispute that. I'm personally trying to clean things up, and although articles such as our piece on the Reman Dynasty have been improved from http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:Reman_Dynasty&oldid=584645 to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reman_Dynasty, I'm well aware that other pages such as the one on Akavir are incredibly poor.

The differences between UESP and TIL got ugly because one or two people from TIL (not Proweler) decided to ignore the opinion of most UESP editors and rewrite pages as they saw fit. That isn't how a wiki works. These days, if you want to rewrite a Lore article there's only one rule: everything must be sourced. That means TIL is still the place to go to for speculation and extrapolation, and it will always be the site for lore masters, but that hopefully UESP will become a useful site for basic lore that people who only play the games can understand and appreciate. People like "Mankar Camoran" and "Mistahtokyo" miss the point entirely. As other people have pointed out, there's an edit button. Use it instead of complaining.

For the first time after this post i really could make it!!! Befora that it only sounded like SOME northen language due to its intonation harshness and clear lack of more "western european" vocalization. English it certainly wasn t.
Now you could add some more vogals to fit the singing.
Awesome indeed they hired consulted a linguistic to create something special. Or it could be an already ancient dead language we comon mortals don t know.

I wasn't aware the policy had changed. That is good to hear.

I hope exactly the opposite!!
I hope we don t learn enought for many hours, ad many pieces are hidden among the game and not only in the main quest.

If we get the podcast for anything, after reading this very interesting thread i would bet that:
Skyrim was about to attack the empire to prevent akatosh from winning, but the let it "pass blank",
So we might very well start up in a "brotherhood war" Skyrim VS Empire and while they are spanking themselves the gragon appear, i hope not at the start of the game, (let some days pass).
I still find lame placing dragons [censored] evil creatures, that are supposed to be smart, massive and have firebreath being defeated by a single, or even a group, of shoddy players.
It would be interesting to see to view of the Cyrodiilians perption of the dragon coming upon the Skyrimers, and then (or merely probably) being attacked by the same dragons.

As for the lore discussion, i agree Aedra and Daedra can be the 2 faces of the same coin as Akatosh and Lhorkan being the same can be very well true as traitors gain new names, people tend to gain new nicknames depending on their act and perception.
So some perceive the aedra as daedra and vice versa. As said its a matter of acting and perception of the act.

As for those hearing english, if there some german base in the language and singers, would be nice to remember england has been overun by saxons and Angles, germanic tribes, so they have nices similarities and derivations. So hearing english wouldn t be that hard although i not being and english native couldn t hear squat of english in the song.

Now i m a bit more interested ,ok quite more, in skyrim. But if things are straignthforward as they seem, us versus a pletora of dragons it will still be lame, and very oblivion like with diferent pixelization. Dragon = Oblivion portal.

Someone noticed that the chanting during the VGA announcement is the second stanza. And they were right! I didn't check, but is this common knowledge by now?

I do tend to get aedra and daedra mixed up as I am terrible with names.
And also I would have to agree rocks and grass and land aren't ideas per se, but labels. In reality nothing has a name, it just is, but anywho I have two people saying I am right (for the most part) and one rather blunt person saying I am way off and then correcting himself, so I assume I wasn't too far off base?

We did.

He/She actually meant - nothing we find out before the game is released should happen after the first hour of game play.

Did you like how we actually, came up with things that could very well be it in english? :celebration: