GI Back Cover Poem IV : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:52 pm

UESP is wiki. Go ahead and edit if you know better and there's source for your information. If someone is the first to succeed then another word to say it is that they are the only one that we know of to succeed.

Well considering only mention about black dragons is from Akavir and the Skyrim cover does say talk about dragons with black scales we're on the right tracks.
And then if the cat folk of Akavir are trying to become dragons and they clearly can become dragons - and they want to invade Tamriel I think this is pretty straight forward.

The lore what we currently have to work on doesn't of course bring us the full picture. Bethesda is of course coming up with it as they go along.
I am not a lore master, by a long shot. I just know that it's made by developers of a game. They can twist anything so that it suits their purpose, they decide what happens in the future of this universe.

People wanted dragons, they've been wanted in the game from since Morrowind. Now what if Bethesda wanted us to fight against the biggest and the baddest dragon of them all.

The entire article is pretty much sourced off Mysterious Akavir. Again, if you know better, and you have sources, there is edit button.

Dude, don't argue. Anyone who knows anything will tell you that The Imperial Library is where the "good" and "real" lore is. I used to go to UESP just like you but thats really just good for gameplay. It is very very good for gameplay.

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:28 am

Dude, don't argue. Anyone who knows anything will tell you that The Imperial Library is where the "good" and "real" lore is. I used to go to UESP just like you but thats really just good for gameplay. It is very very good for gameplay.

Why not argue? If there is something wrong, all it takes for you to push the edit button and fix it.
I think that's rather rational way of handling things rather than "Get away from that site and get on this one".

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:57 am

So i guess ill go ahead and ask again,

Does anything happen when you type out all the words in the site? like, does it translates the words into english in some cool animation or anything?

Probably not, but would of been good

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:20 am

So i guess ill go ahead and ask again,

Does anything happen when you type out all the words in the site? like, does it translates the words into english in some cool animation or anything?

Probably not, but would of been good

There's a legend in the bottom that'll help you translate it to english once you've got all the words.

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:42 pm

Why not argue? If there is something wrong, all it takes for you to push the edit button and fix it.
I think that's rather rational way of handling things rather than "Get away from that site and get on this one".

I am giving you good advice and you refuse it. :spotted owl:

So i guess ill go ahead and ask again,

Does anything happen when you type out all the words in the site? like, does it translates the words into english in some cool animation or anything?

Probably not, but would of been good

No, no animations. You just have to use the key at the bottom to translate it into English.

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:07 pm

There's a legend in the bottom that'll help you translate it to english once you've got all the words.

Yeah i know that. but judging from your answer i guess nothing happens when you type it all out in the site.

In my haste, i didnt even realize you can type in the site, so what i did was save the back cover picture, inverted it, and went from there. lol

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:18 am

Dude, don't argue. Anyone who knows anything will tell you that The Imperial Library is where the "good" and "real" lore is.

And by "good" and "real" you mean solely information that is deemed to be canon by the Kirkbride fan-club. :wink:

I actually agree with Dom. If UESP is so bad, then edit it and make it better

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:00 am

Lorkhan and Akatosh are not one in the same.

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:55 pm

And by "good" and "real" you mean solely information that is deemed to be canon by the Kirkbride fan-club. :wink:

I actually agree with Dom. If UESP is so bad, then edit it and make it better

I don't know dude! I just know that what I just read was wrong and it was on UESP. Also that everyone says that UESP is bad for lore. If the Imperial library is already better then why should I spend my time working on making an easily editable site better? Its already great! Just not for lore. At all.

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:08 am

Well considering only mention about black dragons is from Akavir and the Skyrim cover does say talk about dragons with black scales we're on the right tracks.
And then if the cat folk of Akavir are trying to become dragons and they clearly can become dragons - and they want to invade Tamriel I think this is pretty straight forward.

The lore what we currently have to work on doesn't of course bring us the full picture. Bethesda is of course coming up with it as they go along.
I am not a lore master, by a long shot. I just know that it's made by developers of a game. They can twist anything so that it suits their purpose, they decide what happens in the future of this universe.

The UESP article is mostly repeating the book Mysterious Akavir as if it were a factual description. The book however bears a strong resemblance to the other creation Myths - conveniently called the Monomyth. They all follow the same typical pattern of a war between two groups, much to the detriment of the world and end with some one ascending to heaven.
For the Mer this is Auriel and other Mer have tried to follow him just like the other cats tried to follow Tosh Raka. As such the Tosh Raka from Mysterious Akavir is probebly Auriel to the Altmer, Akatosh to the Cyrodiils and Alduin to the Nords.
So with the desire of the Cats to become Dragons, the desire of the Mer to become Gods, we can say that the Dragons from Mysterious Akavir are the gods. Now don't think Daedra here, think the Nine Divines.

Thats what you can gather from the lore we have and in this context the Dragons of Akavir are rather metaphorical.

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:03 am

I am giving you good advice and you refuse it. :spotted owl:

I think you've only engaged in a logical fallacy. Where you say x says y so x must be speaking the truth, because x (allegedly) knows a lot about z. I personally demand more evidence of this. To me all of this sounds like bias of one site.
Sure, some other site might have more information, but I think it's rather dumb to run around saying that site y has bad information when there's edit button on top with which you have fix the false or incorrect information. If wikipedia has bad information we fix that information, add sources that validate the information. It's all good if those sources are valid.

The answer is not to abandon one site and start using another.

I don't know dude! I just know that what I just read was wrong and it was on UESP. Also that everyone says that UESP is bad for lore. If the Imperial library is already better then why should I spend my time working on making an easily editable site better? Its already great! Just not for lore. At all.

Argument from popularity
In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges: "If many believe so, it is so."

FYI: I'm not saying you are wrong, you might be right - but for the wrong reasons.

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:24 am

I think you've only engaged in a logical fallacy. Where you say x says y so x must be speaking the truth, because x (allegedly) knows a lot about z. I personally demand more evidence of this. To me all of this sounds like bias of one site.
Sure, some other site might have more information, but I think it's rather dumb to run around saying that site y has bad information when there's edit button on top with which you have fix the false or incorrect information. If wikipedia has bad information we fix that information, add sources that validate the information. It's all good if those sources are valid.

The answer is not to abandon one site and start using another.

It has bad lore-based information. The fact that there is an edit button does not change the fact that the information regarding bad lore lore in that site at this very second is correct. It is, and will remain, bad lore information until someone changes it. I'd rather not have others wasting time editing that site's lore when another site specializes in lore.

Argument from popularity
In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges: "If many believe so, it is so."

DonTheDunmer: Today, 11:01 PM

That argument was indeed weak, but it does not change the facts. If you're so upset about this, why don't YOU edit the page instead of reminding everyone about the edit button's location?

We should discontinue discussing this matter, as this thread does not concern said site, only the cover poem.

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:32 pm

These dragons are most certainly Akavir - Skyrim will tell about Akavir invasion.

Here's what http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Akavir.

Please understand the context of that text with the rest of the mythos. Dragon does parallel the death of the gods in Tamrielic mythology as inferred by Tosh Raka becoming as Akatosh. Nordic myth does not paint the god of time the same way. Alduin is the cyclical aspect of the universe, a much higher primordial deity. His 'intent' isn't invasion but destruction of all time in order to renew it.

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:36 pm

It has bad lore-based information. The fact that there is an edit button does not change the fact that the information regarding bad lore lore in that site at this very second is correct. It is, and will remain, bad lore information until someone changes it.

Of course not. I never implied that.
My argument is about that if there's something wrong, why don't people fix it then but just talk about how bad one site is.

I'd rather not have others wasting time editing that site's lore when another site specializes in lore.

Then the problem will never be fixed and you and others will be wasting time arguing against people who have read "bad lore".

That argument was indeed weak, but it does not change the facts. If you're so upset about this, why don't YOU edit the page instead of reminding everyone about the edit button's location?

I haven't seen any facts. All I've heard is hear-say, what other people have said that is true.
And I haven't ever said that I'm the lore master. I don't know what is wrong with the site, I have never implied that. I don't know what the bad lore is.

You have implied there's stuff wrong there, just like others in this thread. If you know there's something wrong, you guys should be the ones to enlighten that page. Not me. It's not my place to make edits. If I knew better, I'd love to edit the page. I've contributed in wikipedia on the stuff I know about. This isn't among my specialities.

We should discontinue discussing this matter, as this thread does not concern said site, only the cover poem.

Yes, agreed.

I think I've made my point multiple times now.

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:14 pm

Of course not. I never implied that.
My argument is about that if there's something wrong, why don't people fix it then but just talk about how bad one site is.

Then the problem will never be fixed and you and others will be wasting time arguing against people who have read "bad lore".

If Intel starts making bad chips, I won't try to fix them, I'll just buy AMD.
As to the poem, does any of this information tie into the Nords atop the Throat of the World? Seems like a landmark worth including in the plot..

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:54 pm

If Intel starts making bad chips, I won't try to fix them, I'll just buy AMD.

Straw man argument.
Where's the edit page of intel chips? How does fixing Itel chip relates to editing a page of a wiki?
Rhetorical questions.

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:37 pm

Straw man argument.
Where's the edit page of intel chips? How does fixing Itel chip relates to editing a page of a wiki?
Rhetorical questions.

Both are unnecessary and both can be done. Why fix that when there's another site that does it better? Heck, that site should just delete their lore information and focus on gameplay, we don't need a multitude of conflicting sites with conflicting information.
A man with one watch will always be sure as to what time it is, regardless of whether it is the right time or not. A man with two watches is never really quite sure.

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:28 am

There is a difference between the culture of UESP and the Imperial Library and it's mostly based on how sources are treated and I'm going to generalize a bit here.

People who hang out on TIL generally seem to think it's better to stick with original sources when making an argument. Using an article from the UESP doesn't provide an argument with any additional validity. It actually just means more work since now it has to be argued where the article goes wrong aswell.

On the other hand people on the UESP don't want to use texts posted by developers outside the game as a valid source and this is a position that is certainly justifiable.

There are other differences too but I think these are the most important. These differences mean that it is hard to come to an agreement. Which leads to animosity back and forth. Pointless animosity. So you'll understand I'm not a fan these arguments from either side.

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:30 am

I still can't shake the feeling there will be more to the plot than 'Akatosh/Alduin decides it's time for a do over'. It's already got me more interested than Oblivion's plot had half way through the game however, so promising start.

I took the time to translate incidentally, felt good not taking the easy way out. The chant in the trailer is even more epic now though!

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:07 pm

Well that was fun. :happy:

So, basically, we're up against the god of time; the one that saved the world in the last game? He only showed up to tell Mehrunes Dagon, "Wait, wait, wait! Wait! It is not time to destroy the world yet!", and in this one he says "okay, now it's time, but I'm going to eat the Nords first"?

And Martin turned into an avatar of Akatosh, so now we're... sort of... fighting him also?

Pretty much, yeah. It makes more sense when looked at through TES metaphysics. The Aedra are essentially governed by the beliefs mortals hold about them; so the Time God is Akatosh, the benevolent dragon god who, along with the other Divines, helped Lorkhan create the world, made the pact with Alessia, and helped save the day in Oblivion, and he's Auri-El, one of the Aedra who Lorkhan tricked into creating the world, trapping the spirits there, and who led the Aedra against him in retribution, and he's Alduin, the Alpha and Omega who will one day rise up to consume the world to make room for the next one. He's all these figures (and several more) all at the same time, even though they all contradict one another.

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:42 am

Akatosh/Alduin/Auri-El is also very insane, and looks to be very hungry now.

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:21 pm

Just translated it for myself... All I can say is holy [censored] I'm even more excited for Skyrim now.

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:06 am

so thats what they're saying in the trailer.... I kinda think what we thought they were saying in english was more epic, and thats still all i can hear when i listen to the theme.....

» Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:01 am

Both are unnecessary and both can be done. Why fix that when there's another site that does it better? Heck, that site should just delete their lore information and focus on gameplay, we don't need a multitude of conflicting sites with conflicting information.
A man with one watch will always be sure as to what time it is, regardless of whether it is the right time or not. A man with two watches is never really quite sure.

I think you quite missed the point. Instead of attacking my argument you made straw man of clearly not equal dilemma and attacked that. Thus, straw man argument.
If you really think editing a page in wiki is as easy and equivalent as fixing a chip I think you really should apply for a job at AMD and/or Intel.

As for the latter points, I hate to repeat myself.

» Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:31 pm

so thats what they're saying in the trailer.... I kinda think what we thought they were saying in english was more epic, and thats still all i can hear when i listen to the theme.....

No the poem is different from the song in the trailer. It way too long.