I have been thinking today about what could be added to make the actual game feel more real. I'm not talking about capping spells, timing blocks, adding spears, or anything like that. This is strictly about details. Here are some important things (to me) that will make it realistic.

Merchants:

With the inclusion of side crafting skills, there needs to be more merchants. Instead of picking up all your goods at a general items store like Alchemy-mart for ingredients or Blades R Us for weapons, I think we can go a little more detailed. Like a Butcher Shop for your various meats for cooking. Or actually buying regular vegetables like lettuce from a Farmer. There should be hunters that sell skins and miners that sell ore for smithing. Another good addition here is merchants that aren't always around. What's to stop a person who runs an inn/shop on their boat from going to other ports? It makes sense for there to be a few small villages on coasts, in addition to big cities. Why wouldn't a sailing merchant try those spots out?

In addition to that, there should be random merchants on roads. I'll get into that more later but simple respawning leveled (don't kill me please) merchants that wander between towns and settlements. Their paths would be random but they always stick to roads so you never know where you might see one. Good Radiant AI quests too. Save the merchant from being robbed or help rob him type of thing.

Crime and Punishment:

First off, every city should have it's own jail, like Oblivion. But there should be different policies on how guards react. No guard would kill you for punching a man in the face (unless the guard was said man). They would try and arrest you and if you pull out your claymore than they fight to kill. But if you keep just your fists or a small club or knife they would try and subdue you and haul you to jail. No sense killing us over something so trivial, escalation of force and all that. Also, some places should have more severe punishments than others. In the civilized capitol you just do your time but in some seedy town you pay with your blood.

No psychic guards, but that is covered in the Stealth section. Bounties should only affect certain areas and guards of that area. No reason Bruma should know I stole a plate in Cheydinhal. Of course after you decide to ritualistically slaughter anyone with children living across the street from them (for Akatosh knows whatever reason you sadistic ****s ) then the word should spread and bounty should not decrease, which leads me to my next point.

How does word travel? Logically they call up the mage guild and have them send word out. However, they would probably not rely on an independent guild so they would use a courier. Want to keep your actions contained to Area X? Well they will send a runner to warn other cities. Just silence him and the message dies. It would be a few days before the city noticed no one was responding and try again. So if you were good, you could literally kill everyone in a city over the course of a few weeks and other cities may never know.

There should be individual city bounties and a province bounty. The province bounty only goes up if word spreads or you are doing crime in multiple cities. If the province bounty goes up, all city bounties are set there until you go to jail. And when I say jail I mean JAIL. Nothing else. no bribes or fines. If you got province wide bounty it should be a kill or capture thing. You can't buy your way out of trouble.

Where did the fines go when you paid them? I did a mod (never released it, it was going to be a huge set of tweaks) that put the money in a locked coffer in the jail. You could break in and steal it back, on the risk that they suspected you and would try and arrest you (like a 5% chance of that happening, you would get a 500 gold fine in addition to the stolen money). On the equivalent of Saturday, a courier would bring the fines from other cities to the IC palace. From there you had until Monday morning to steal it back, or it was reused for federal cash and gone forever.

Stealth:

saebel has it summed up here: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1167460-revising-detection-and-sneaking/page__p__17191806__hl__stealth__fromsearch__1#entry17191806 The summation is REALISTIC DETECTION.

Also, on the topic of psychic guards, that needs to be fixed. I could get a bounty for attacking someone in the middle of nowhere or get a bounty because I stole a horse and the HORSE saw me do it and reported it, and then the guards would follow you anywhere, forever. This occasionally resulted in a bug where they weren't fighting you or pursuing you to arrest you, just following you. They would still try to arrest you when they caught up, but you could fast travel and go faster than them. So you could see them in caves or oblivion gates, I even got one in Mankar Camoran's Realm once, but that might have been a more severe glitch.

On the topic of Stealth and Merchants. I should be able to sell non-unique stolen goods to a merchant, as long as they weren't the owner. There should also be fences outside the thieves guild for getting rid of hot loot, so you don't HAVE to join a guild. Also, I should be able to store stolen crap in my house or hideout for a few weeks and they would lose their stolen flag. Something like 2 + (BaseItemValue/10) days. so for anything worth 10 gold or less, it takes 3 days, for a 100 gold item it takes 13 days, for a 1000 gold item you better hold onto it for a while (namely 103 days or approx. 3.4 months) or find a fence.

Extra Stuff:

"Large Scale Battles" - Got this from http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1167749-wars-and-battles/. The major fights in past games were reasonably lame because of the lack of LOD low poly models. If we got some low poly models we could make huge fights look real and really cool. Well if you combine that and good scripting. You are storming a keep that Alduin has control of. You are way on the other side of a field and charging forward. In the distance you see people fighting, but they are all low poly models that take 1/10th or so the processing power of a normal enemy. As you get closer, a scripted attack by Alduin blows a group getting close to nothing but ash. That way it builds the tension, and clears the way for you. Large story fights should be like this as you only do them once per playthrough. It should be memorable for epicness, not for lameness.

A side note on this, even a fire sprite for super far away enemies would work. A fire sprite is like the fire in Oblivion. It was a 2d animation that always faces the player, giving the illusion of 3d. For really small people in the way off distance, you wouldn't be able to tell anyways. Especially since if you fled the battle area to rescue those far away companions it would probably just kill you saying Alduin swooped down upon you or without your help the charge failed. Same with if Martin died in Oblivion.

Roads to Other Provinces - Why is Cyrodiil in the center of the continent, yet feels so disconnected? No roads to other places, that's why. No trade routes, paths, or even some kind of crazy laser border guard like on Halo 3 maps. There should be paths that head down to other places, but you just can use them. This is continued in my next idea.

NPCs Walking on Roads - No one leaves the safe city walls in Oblivion. At least it seems that way. There should be random NPCs that only offer rumors or whatnot on the roads. they would usually have little loot, with rare exceptions. This could lead to more Radiant AI quests like the one mentioned above with a bandit attack on merchants. What's more, have them "go" to other provinces. Just have them walk down the path, out of sight, and then move to a different entrance and walk a different route. Simulated realism.

Better Local Maps - I have seen quite a lot of distress that the local map in The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is the greatest game in the history of the universe.. And rightfully so, as it kind of does. The detection radius was WAY to big, it could even go through walls. Some kind of LoS detection would work better. That way you won't miss a room because you stood near it and the map makes it look like you explored it. It also would keep secret rooms secret. Besides that, there needs to be a height detection system on it. Most Alyeid ruins would be multiple stories in the same general area so the map would look like a boxy mess. If they made so every so many units of distance (like 256 or 512, whatever will ensure things on two different levels stay on those levels in the map) it would go up or down a map page it would really make the map not so... terrible. (A simple up or down on D-Pad to control visible floor and little arrows by where floors change to indicate if it goes up or down would work perfectly)

In final regards to the map, a way to take notes on it would be awesome. That being said, it is doubtful. so how about more than one map marker? Even one more would help so much. Just a simple menu like the regular (Move, Leave, Remove) menu, but with the ability to choose what colored map marker to move. Red and Green are already for quests, and Blue is a custom marker so lets add Orange, Purple, Black, and Brown. That gives you the quest markers and FIVE custom markers. That would be so awesome I can't contain myself.

Better Item Placement - Ok, this has been discussed before but I want to touch on it as it is a huge issue to some of us. Placing objects in Oblivion was agonizing. The worst part about it was that is was so easy to fix. I'll use the Xbox controls for this. LB picks up the item right? Well step 1 is to make it a toggle, not a hold button. Not everyone can navigate and hold down multiple buttons at once. Click to grab, click to release. Step 2 is a matter of being able to spin the actual object, not just move it. For this, just have RB toggle between moving the object and rotating it.

You aim at the book and press LB. You now move the book with the Right anolog Stick. However, unlike Oblivion, you don't hold LB, and the item will not rotate at all right now. If it was laying on a table with the back cover down and the top of the book facing Northeast that is the rotation it STAYS at. Period. If you pick it up and carry it up a damn mountain the back cover will still be facing the floor and the top of the book will point Northeast. this is where RB comes in. I know RB has a combat function, but how often do you multitask between interior decorating and melee combat? If you press RB while the move object is toggled it with stop the book from moving in the game world. The Right anolog Stick now spins the book. You can face it whatever direction you want, then press RB again and the book will move in the game world again but no longer spin. Precise controls. Let's walk through it with a book...

Step 1: Target Book and Press LB to enter Move Mode
Step 2: Move Book to Shelf
Step 3: Press RB to start Spin Mode
Step 4: Rotate Book until it stands up and the binding faces out, like in a library
Step 5: Press RB again to stop Spin Mode
Step 6. Finally place the now properly facing Book into shelf next to others
Step 7: Press LB again to set Book down.

It seems complicated on paper but I guarantee this is 100s of times easier to use than Oblivion's version once you get the hang of it.

Feel free to browse, but not to carouse. Oh Tom Nook... I hate you. Anyways add or talk about whatever but please keep combat out of it, there are plenty of threads on that and this is mainly about Atmosphere and realism of other mechanics. Also, if you quote this post, please "snip" it or only quote the part relating to your response, having to scroll down and see 9 copies of the OP's post on the first page alone is irritating. Cheers.

i dont really care as much for the item placement but the option would still be nice. i'd like more realistic reactions to death as well. In NV, right after a fight that killed one of their mates, two NCR soldiers, standing almost on top of their comrades, started carrying on a casual observation. As i just started playing STALKER a few days ago, i was amazed to see someone drag a dead body. It would be nice to see this in Skyrim as well.

All good ideas, it is possible to do most of that in Oblivion now with mods ( or similar to those anyway ).

All I can say is that rather than play catch up to modders, bethesda tries to out do them and set a new bar to exceed.
Also on guards and stealth Oblivion was a pain yes I strongly believe that, however I don't want a free pass.
In Skyrim at this dark time it's set in, I'd hope that getting caught is not as easy or silly.
The punishment should be alot harsher, no or little jail, with stat dumps or punch ups like Oblivion.
Rather if the person catches you and dislikes you they'll fight like a bearserker, If the guards get you, branding, beatings, crippled limbs if possible would be involved.

The most problematic thing is large scale battles. For a game designed to last years, I don't expect the "normal game" to just be idling along, suddenly having enough power available for the large scale battles. The majority of the cycles will be used for the regular game, leaving nothing extra available for any large scale battles. Even in FONV (actually, even last boss fight in Oblivion too, but not to the same extent, not today at least) I go from FPS in my counter to SPF (seconds per frame) during the Dam fights - they're unplayable for me. But the normal game hogs along nicely. And these aren't really large scale battles at all.

So, "large scale battles, but without costing anything" - time for a reality check?

regarding crime and punishment, i like the Gothic system where fights started with NPCs only resulted in knockouts and you'd have to attack the knocked out NPC again to strike a killing blow if you chose to. However, guards should haul you to prison when they see you do that or when someone sees and reports you.

All those points +1. And with the large scale battles, are you talking about how they did it on Kingdom Hearts 2 where you fight 1000 heartless? Because that was quite a clever system.

In Oblivion I was arrested in Anvil for lock picking and taken to the castle. Now the guards in the mine where you free the ogres catches up with me and it was a huge battle.
Afterwards one of the wounded guards kneeled over a dead bandit and said "it has been a murder". So yes NPC reacts on death but not very smart.

Very true lol. Just the combat/death reaction AI needs some work. Ever hear a guard shout "I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than you." while he is mindlessly charging a mudcrab? I have. Or how if there is a body in the street EVERY guard goes and kneels by it if they get close enough, but no one does anything about getting the rotting corpse off the street? That is just strange. I know AI got seriously gimped in Oblivion and there isn't a simple way to do this but something would be nice.

Also, for the epic battles I meant more like large scale battles like the Defense of Bruma. Your goal isn't kill everything per se, but to let the people around you fight and you do your objective. Just much more grandiose. Skyrim is in the middle of a civil war so there needs to be large scale conflict at some point. Whether it be a large battle that gets interrupted by Alduin's forces (whoever they may be) or something completely different, I was just offering a way to make it look more realistic without sacrificing framerates. The main battle would still be you and a few others fighting a few enemies, it just wouldn't look so pathetic.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I don't care so much for the item placement, but hey? Why not?

I so agree, dude. I DO NOT play Elder Scrolls for the combat. I play in order to be immersed, and to roleplay. And, immersiveness means everything you talked about, all the little details that make the world appear more real, and therefore, more immersive.

Combat is great and all, and I am curious about how better it will be in Skyrim, but it's not the reason I play Elder Scrolls. So, I agree with you, 100%.

Yeah the item placement is to appeal to a much more niche market. I have seen a dozen or so topics or posts asking for it and as I have tried to move things around in Oblivion myself I added it.

Here are my own ideas added to yours:

Merchants: Everything you talked about is great. I wouldn't mind some fetch quests given by merchants who need certain packages/stuff. Example: Blacksmith needs iron ore and asks you to fetch him some. He gives you some money for the purpose of purchasing iron ore and you can choose whether to mine it or buy it. If you enjoy mining and want to keep the money he gives you, go for it. If you absolutely hate the mining mechanics, buy the iron ore.
In regards to having wandering, random merchants, this was done in Fallout 3, so I think your idea has a decent chance of making it into Skyrim.

Crime and Punishment: I agree with your points here, however, I think they need to also implement a system similar to Daggerfall. If you are arrested, you go to court. They had a system by which you plead guilty or not guilty. If you plead guilty and were found guilty, your sentence was less severe. If you plead not guilty, and were found guilty, your sentence was more severe.
This is all I remember about Daggerfall's crime and punishment system, but I think that this system could be implemented in Skyrim, but could go deeper. Your personality and speechcraft should affect how likely it is for you to avoid punishment through pleading not guilty. Or, perhaps your relationship with the judge of that city could affect how likely it is for you to be found guilty. How many quests (favors) have you done for that judge? What about your relationship with law enforcement to begin with? How many quests have you done for the guard captain, or his guards, which could affect how likely you are to be arrested in the first place?
I think your idea that every region of Skyrim should not know of some crimes is your best idea. Murder should be known throughout the province, while stealing should bring less attention.

NPCs on roads: I agree that NPCs should come to Skyrim from other provinces. To add to your idea, you should hear news from other provinces from these NPCs.

Now, here are some of my own categories -

World Map Unavailable at first - Instead of the whole world map being available at the start of the game, I think we should have to purchase a map. And each region of Skyrim should have its own map to purchase.

Menu Options - There should be certain things the player should be able to toggle, like 'quest markers on/off', 'compass markers on/off', having to eating, drinking, and sleeping toggles, although it would be even better if there was some kind of hardcoe mode like I hear are in Fallout: NV.

Certain enemies don't attack - If I am a known thief, like if I'm playing a bandit, would it be too much to ask to be friendly with some bandit factions. Or if my character practices necromancy, could I become a friend to other necromancers. Also, this could affect your relationship with the mages guild, with mages attacking you on site (of course this should depend on whether views have changed in the last 200 years).

Good points.

My addition: Shopkeepers shouldn't follow you when you're inside their shops. I understand that they do this to prevent you from stealing anything from the store, but with Todd saying that the majority of buildings will be unique, I am certain this will be "fixed" with shops that make sense. I.E. Bugak gro-Bol's http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Southern_Books won't have an upper level where he can't possibly see if someone steals a book without having to follow like a guarding dog.
I really hated that. "Hey, I'm an honest customer! Leave me alone or else I won't buy a dogdamn book!"

Also, you should be able to lift up and inspect wares without the shopkeeper screaming for the guards, which results in punishment or death for the so-called crime of touching a ware. Todd said that people who knew you wouldn't care if you ate their apple, so I'm sure something has been done to this as well.


I agree, it would be awesome if the world map was unavailable at first. Or if it is like in Morrowind, where you had no idea where the cities were or how many there were before you had traveled to them.

About enemies that don't attack: What makes a bandit a bandit? Is it some disease that makes him as worthy as a wild creature in Guards' eyes, and makes him kill any stranger on sight? It would be awesome if you come close to a ruin which is inhabited with bandits, and they shout warnings to you, telling you to leave - or else. That would be awesome, instead of "Huh! A stranger! Quick everyone, KILL HIM!" Bandits are outlaws, not mindless beasts. The Khajiit highwaymen were much better, they only attacked you if you refused to pay their fine. They felt more like bandits than the mindless "bandits" living in the dungeons.
I understand that some bandits who doesn't wish to be found (maybe they have commited serious crimes only punishable with execution?) will kill you on sight to silence you and prevent you from telling anyone of their location.
Enemy NPC's should really be more like humans and less like creatures.

That's basically what Tessellation does (although dinamically), isn't it?

That'd be a good choice for consoles or if the game engine isn't DX11-enabled. But I keep saying that with Tessellation and/or Geometry Instancing, there's no longer a excuse not to render even hundreds of enemies on screen (at least on DX11 machines....c'mon guys, get at least a GTX 460 for 150 crappy bucks! ).

On the other hand...



...and/or a nice AI, although after seeing some videos of ARMA 2 with a thousand of soldiers shotting at each other, I've hope of such big battles to be seen. At least with mods. And if the AI part of the engine is also capable (along with graphics) of doing it.



Well, I kinda like that, but if the fighting is scripted and the guys are there only for decorating, it'd ruin the entire purpose of the battle for me. After all, I'd like to have a REAL battle, where the tension is for you having to fight for your life, and choosing the most propicious terrain to fight, having to do some side-missions during it (e.g, carrying a batch of health potions to some part of the battle, or clean the way out for some warriors trapped in a small cave nearby, etc). After all, if Skyrim does a BIG battle after all, then let's do it alright and put all the steaks in the BBQ

Arma 2 looks amazing. I watched a few videos and it was intense. The only difference is the pure lack of detail in Arma 2. I mean it is very well done but there aren't as many objects like trees and buildings, let alone the regular objects that get rendered like objects to pick up. But it also requires a huge amount of power to run, consoles probably couldn't handle anything close to that for a long time. If we could do all the different things like cloth AI and huge battles and all that stuff at once it would be awesome. But it will be years before that is a realization. I was theorizing what will work on consoles because everything BGS does in this game has to work on those first.

Uhmmm...I think we're about 2 GPU generations away (at least) to be able to see massive battles + physiqued clothes on. That'd take a massive amount of CPU/GPU (PhysX or similar) power.

But batlefields generally are open, pretty big spaces with no trees (although small side skirmirshes done in a nearby forest would be also very welcome, and also "war-wise"), so there'd be no problem about having to calculate much world or object physics, possibly apart from dead bodies. I think even some details could be added (a lone farm or abandoned shack with some old junk, an small cave in the open...) without stressing the system too much. And it'd provide a very welcome shelter from the battle

Plus, in forests (although it'd work for any situation, but it'd take advantage especially there), Skyrim could fully take advantage of another GPU technique: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-buffering#Z-culling, in order to increase the performance. The technology is here, now it's only a matter of using it...