Not true at all, I come from Dark Age of Camelot as my first massive scale PVP game and this game very heavily emulates that. (Guild Wars 2 also heavily emulated DAOC).

Basically unless your side is totally capped out on population, you always welcome another soldier to the fight. There will be elitist guilds, yes. That happens in every game, even City of Hero's which was about as non-PVP and non-elitists as you get. But ultimately if we have not hit the population cap another player is better than not having another player. Speaking purely tactically I don't care how bad you are you can still be a bullet shield that does some amount of damage. Just don't expect me to use a soul gem on you if you die more than you live lol. (if you are a bad player just play cautiously and ranged until you learn to be better OR accept the consequences of a run back)

You tell me that all I have to work with as pugs and I'll sigh a little. But a pug zerg is still alot better than trying to solo the enemy army outnumbered 3:1 haha.

The game hasn't even been released and I'm already a bad player, damn! (j/k)

Well the best players are 9 times out of 10 going to be the biggest jerks. Thats true with any competition. I was at one time, a great speed chess player. And if theres anything Ive learned its an intense hatred of losing, and intense hatred of your opponet and not wanting him to have that happy feeling of winning, that makes a truly dominant competitor. You dont want to just beat your opponet, you want them destroyed, you want no measure of your greatness to be questioned.

People think Michael Jordan is a nice guy, because of the McDonalds commercials. Jordan is without a doubt one of the most egotistical self absorbed people in the public space. He made friends with players like Barkley and Ewing, and used his friendship against them to destroy them in NBA finals. This is something you can not switch off, you can only hide it to make the rest of your life more understandable to normal people.

People act like this sort of attitude is unique to MMO's, because maybe they havent experienced true competition elsewhere. I can assure you, its more rare to meet a genuinely nice guy who is also great at beating other people in his trade.

Very good points (and thread, OP).

In my first Beta back in November, I was simply horrible. I must have been level 4 or 5 before I realized I could slot skills to a hotbar. It took me until late Sunday afternoon to reach level 10 even despite playing this game for almost 18 straight hours once they opened the login servers at 6 PM. Once I reached Cyrodiil, I must have spent two hours trying to learn how to use the Siege Weapon Repair kit in the Alliance Tutorial quest because I had no idea we had to quick slot the repair kit as nothing in the game (including the in-game help) explained that. I couldn't even figure out the lockpicking technique no matter how much I tried.

With four Beta tests under my belt now, I can breeze to level 10 in a few short hours. I can instantly run to all Skyshard locations in my PvE zone without even thinking about it. I know where so many locked chests are spawned in my PvE zone that I can now open them with relative ease, so much so that my current character created in the early February Beta has now looted almost 300 chests. One of my personal annoyances with the game now is having to pick and choose which skills and items to slot because I don't think we have enough slots! I'm even "training" a friend who received my extra Beta key so he can benefit from my experiences.

I still do not consider myself a good player by any means, especially after watching several videos and streams of players on the PTS server absolutely breeze through the upper level PvE content by one or two shotting all matched level enemies. I can only two shot enemies a few levels or more below me. But I do get better with each hour I play the game. I suspect most everyone else does, too.

If someone is struggling and believes they are a bad player, ask or seek out help! There are plenty of people who will assist other players and help them improve . Plus, there are now plenty of external resources to consult for information about the game to help you grow and learn. Those did not exist back when I played my first Beta. Thankfully those days are now behind us.

The attitude, yes. I totally agree. Feel free to read above what I mentioned about my dear healer friend, his attitude stunk!

There is so much to talk about in a discussion like this, and its not about being bad or good, but in the way you learn, the way you play a game and how you learn to play the game you like to play. (I know, its sounds convoluted, but you need to think about it.)

Im not going to post a big essay so I will keep this very short & let you think about it however you want.

A player will play a game and learn to play in a way that suits them at the time.....they can be very good at playing a game their own way.

They will adapt as the need arises, with different situations within the game whether its with players, mobs or characters/skills. They will always learn, forget & learn something else.

You also have situations with forced adaptions from peer pressures, forcing you to play specific ways to suit them (normally enforced via addons such as DPS meters, Gearscroes etc) This is usually where you are deemed either good or poor at the game, depending on how much you conform to how they want you to play the game.

...I'll leave it at that. Short & sweet.

Take from it what you will.

Its more of this,

When somethink is difficult and people fail, its ok. They try harder and harder and in the end they achieve their aims. With good rewards and the enjoyment of accomplishment, thats very nice. That you dont give up and you fight.

But there are also some, that because they failed, they want difficulty to be reduced, they want all the skill req to be removed. This kind of people, I hate and i make joy of them being " bad "

Everybody has different play styles, there's people that play for fun, there's people that play for a challenge, people that play to be better than anybody else, there's also people with disabilities and they can't help playing the way they do. It doesn't help when you have those rude elitist type players talking down on everyone telling them how useless and bad they are, I see this a lot in MMOs, not towards me but to others and you really don't know who is behind that character behind the computer, it makes me feel bad that I can't be in every group to defend them and speak up to those jerks, they take the game way too seriously and ruin other players mood/fun.

I consider myself a good player in every MMO I play, I research my skills, stats, I ask in the forums for help if I need any, I look up different rotations for classes, I try to make the best out of my characters and see how far I can advance. But even after doing so much research and thinking I have learned everything there is too learn, I will still make mistakes and everybody does, even those rude elitist pros make mistakes.

So I don't see anything wrong with being "bad" if you learn but people will still make mistakes here and there and like I said earlier you don't know who is behind the character playing so not everybody can be perfect.

But there are those types of players you noticed them doing something wrong and you try to whisper them to not embarrass them in a party chat or general and as you're whispering them trying to help them they become hostile and rude and say things like "DONT TELL ME HOW TO PLAY!" *This player is ignoring you". I've only had that happen to me once out of the many times I have helped and given advice so it hasn't discouraged me to help other players....yet.

Those types of players like you're talking about will be bad and stay bad I guess, they refuse any help, or maybe they will eventually learn on their own? Probably after so many people telling them the right way of doing stuff and removing them from the group they will eventually figure it out and maybe look back at the friendly person trying to help them and give them tips was only trying to help.

This.

I would vote to keep Gutsripper the way he is and make the tutorial harder to force people to train and learn and pay attention.

I think you wont remember more then 30% of what you learned after playing games for more then 10 years. You still know it, in your unconciousness.

If youre young on the other hand you wil be much more vital. Take me for instance, i have a hard time to concentrate, and it wil only get worse in time. My reaction time wil drop, my sight wont drop as its one of an eagle but expirience can only do so much in the end.

I also think that if you did play some mmo's or rps's you wil be better then average in solving things and thinking outside of the box and this wil only grow.

So unless youre clueless or are impared in a way that is not(yet) to overcome, there should be no problem.

You can always send me a message on this forum if you are new to mmo's and want to learn some new stuff(im still looking for a companion to level to 50 with, with way to much time on his/her hands(unemployed : /) and from EU and Ebonheart), altho i also think you get the most fun discovering them by your self.

Stop hating on elitists.. it's pretty simple "insecurities are loud, confidence is silent" and thus real elitists don't need to tell others how terrible they are -.-
I think most of you actually confuse elitists with just simply rude and nonchalant people that's trying to be something they're not..

Of course that ^ is just your opinion right?

"The term elitism is also sometimes used to denote situations in which a group of people claiming to possess high abilities or simply an in-group or cadre grant themselves extra privileges at the expense of others".

I think I would rather play with a bad player than a bad gamer. Bad gamers are what's wrong with people when it comes to MMOs or any other multiplayer games, not bad players.

Haha I know right..I found the most players trying to force their views on others are actually terrible players.I think though,if ESO adopts the ways like min/maxing of other mmo's there will be little humbleness left.

Grief everywhere in public grouping,random kicks based on nothing,player having to choose between being excluded or conform..the game itself losing the most important element to continue playing;fun.

Some players who can be considered "noob" were great playing Oblivion and Skyrim but just need to adjust to the mechanics of this game. Some players have been invited to play beta a few times whereas some of us (me) was invited for the first time this past w/e so I was a noob, wasn't a huge fan of watching in chat as others are being called noob. I get that some players are annoying, like the guy who during one quest in Morrowind kept running around killing the kwama workers.. at first I thought it was a quest but I noticed he was just running around killing them all, preventing the rest of us from finishing the quest we actually had. However those things will happen when you can see everyone elses gameplay. I myself was never called one, maybe a good sign but who cares... I enjoyed my time playing.

There is a difference between the terms Noob & newb.

For the internet age where the terms derived from, I find it extraordinary that people keep mis-using the terms.

The apparent definitions are..

Newb = someone who is new to something.

Noob = Someone who lacks ability or fails to learn.

Then I'm a newb then when speaking of ESO. You young kids and your rap music, slang and low hanging jeans...

It's impossible to design a game with more than one build where every build is equally effective. There is no such game, including the single player TES games.

The more freedom players have in designing their builds, the more builds there are, and the more impossible it is to make them all equally effective.

You can get a situation where builds are differently effective in different situations, and TES achieves that pretty well, but for any given situation, some builds are still inevitably better than others.

"The term elitism is also sometimes used to denote situations .... This form of elitism may be described as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination." I think it's important to include that last part since it's clearly a difference between discriminating someone else and simply view oneself as better than somebody else. But you're correct, I made the assumption that you were on about the previous group, as described by wikipedia.
However, If you're refering to the latter group I think it's important that you point out which type of elitist you're on about to avoid confusion, since we're clearly on about the same group of people; the asshats of elitists (much similar to regular asshats however)

True..."noob" has become a derogatory terms used to belittle people in gaming, regardless.

Just as "Pro" has become a term for eitists to proclaim their superiority, regardless of its origin (professional).....in which case, none of them are (which is why Im always extremely sarcastic about it).

Im probably old enough to call most of the forum users "son".....

Meh....as much as I am too old for games, there is something about Eso that draws you in like a good book. Yet I see even that may come to naught if some "pro" gamers have their way.

It amounts to the same thing especially in terms of gaming, so there was no need to quote the whole thing. Those that think they are better will discriminate, hense my distaste of certain types of addon.

just the fact that you made this post to begin with tells me your one of those elitist who will probably have your face glued to the combat tracker making sure everyone does their dps at an acceptable level for your standards and it also means you wont let anyone in your group who didnt min/max their character which like it or not means you are an elitist. guess what im a Bad and im proud to be a bad because at least I dont spend my whole gaming career telling other people how bad or good they are based on my ego needs