BAIN Mod Installation Projects : IV - Oblivion

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:45 am

bash patch, what is it; what does it do; what is it for?

I am still slowly reading through your guides and the Psymon thread. So far subjects like BCF, when they come up, haven't really been explained enough IMO.

I wrote this thread before BCF were even implemented - that is how new they are. I had been waiting for the features to get more care and updates before detailing the how and why of it, but then got distracted by other games and have only played oblivion again in the last few days. Almost 2 months of not playing. I'm hoping as Tomlong ports and fixes the contents here that this thread can die out.

I've been accused of writing walls of text and even a few times of being portrayed as having an issue about it (the slings and arrows of the internet), but really it was work and though I do love to write I'm not a technical writer really.

As for you question about bashed patches - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Wrye_Bash/Bashed_Patch is the official word.
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1079607-relz-garybash/page__view__findpost__p__15784598 is my much lesser attempt at explaining the why of it.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:14 am

Is there a way to script a customized installation with BAIN comparable with an OMOD?

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:47 pm

Yes but there are limits.

BAIN now has a wizard-install function where you can write scripts that will prompt users with questions and I think detect the presence of other mods too.

The only mod I know of that uses it is All Natural.

But keep in mind that BAIn cannot work with shaders and - if I'm not mistaken - it cannot adjust ini files.

I'm not up on the wizard install scripting as from what I've seen it is faster just to package a mod better.

look at the readme included with Wrye Bash under installers tab for more info and how to.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:28 am

Alright, thank you for the info

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:20 pm

Hi Psymon :wave:

Been away for some months, but now that I'm back I have finally decided to go with a Bain instalation. Wow.........what a truly significant improvement over OBMM. Learning this new system has been a slow process for me (learning new tricks at my age doesn't come as fast as it once did), but I'm enjoying myself much more than I expected. I have solved many problems I encounter in this learning process on my own, but have finally run into one that I just can't figure out.

I'm in the process of changing my DLCs from .exe installs into Bain installs. All has gone well except for the fact that when I now use BAIN to install the DLCs, they don't show up in the "DLCList.txt" file in the Oblivion data folder. Text within the file says "# This file is used by Oblivion to keep track of your downloaded content. # Please do not modify this file.". Which would seem to indicate the necessity that all DLCs be listed. My google search hasn't clarified matters either. Some people think the file is for xbox users. Others say it isn't needed, but fail to explain why.

So..........my questions are:

Is it needed for us PC players?

If so, How do I update the DLCList.txt when doing a Bain Install?

I know I could update the file manually by just typing in the updates, but is this work around really the best solution?

Thanks in advance for any answers you may have.
It's good to be back at the game and this forum. I really missed my daily dose of you and all the other regulars.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:28 am

Hi Psymon :wave:

So..........my questions are:

Is it needed for us PC players?

If so, How do I update the DLCList.txt when doing a Bain Install?

I know I could update the file manually by just typing in the updates, but is this work around really the best solution?

Thanks in advance for any answers you may have.
It's good to be back at the game and this forum. I really missed my daily dose of you and all the other regulars.

Hi back :wave:

This is the content of my DLClist.txt:

# This file is used by Oblivion to keep track of your downloaded content.# Please do not modify this file.DLCShiveringIsles.espKnights.esp

And I have at one time or another had all DLC installed. I got the GOTY edition and bought the DLC online and the exe's did not even work on my Vista system. Since I had to run the exe on an different system than my Vista OS they never got registered. I think the only list that counts is the plugins.txt file found in the same place as the save game files. All the txt files in the data folder don't do anything that I'm aware of.

So I would just ignore it.

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:15 pm

Id you are really concerned about your installation being 100% "correct" you can edit that file manually. I did it the first time I installed Mehrunes Razor, since I had to extract the ESP by force, thanks to not being able to connect to gamesass servers.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:24 am

Id you are really concerned about your installation being 100% "correct" you can edit that file manually. I did it the first time I installed Mehrunes Razor, since I had to extract the ESP by force, thanks to not being able to connect to gamesass servers.

Well what the heck does that txt file even do? What could go wrong with it not complete? I never have had it complete?

And after two reinstalls of the game with BAIN - I use that to install the DLC, so they never will get logged that way.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:00 am

Thanks for the input Psymon.
.......and you too Petrus.

I'm convinced I can just ignore the file now and not see it as a problem I have to fix.

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:46 pm

Hello Psymon,

I am afraid I have done something incredibly stupid :toughninja: . A little while ago, I decided to free up space on my hard drive temporarily. Everything was going smoothly until I reached my Bashed Installers folder. With my modded Oblivion now over a hefty 30 gigs, I believed the contents of this folder, measuring a little over 15 GB, could be backed up and temporarily deleted for a day. I backed up everything to an external device and then thoughtlessly deleted the mod files contained within. A day has passed, and I have since restored these files back to their point of origin on my desktop. I opened Wrye Bash and checked the Installers tab to make sure everything was in order.... And to my dismay, nothing was. The install order I had painstakingly put together is now in shambles, and everything I have installed is no longer marked as installed (but the mods themselves in my game are intact.) Another act of idiocy on my part was NOT creating a system restore point before I moved everything, which is like putting salt in a self inflicted wound :facepalm: . I did, however, make a copy of my BAIN install list, so all is not lost (I hope.) I have read your thread, the Bash Readme and various other online literature, but if I missed any information regarding this situation, I obviously did not understand anything. Is there any way to remedy this situation, other than reordering everything in the Installers tab with the list I copied and installing again? I have no quams about reordering everything, but my main concern is to get the program to re-recognize what was already installed for the sake of conflict detection in the future. I did try and anneal some of the packages just to see if it would cause to recognize what was already installed, but it was to no avail.

Thank you,
Sealwarrior

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:06 pm

I'm guessing that after you moved and deleted the BAIN archives you then opened bash and the installers tab?

If so then you are going to have to reinstall all of it. If you are concerned that you won't recall what was installed - install all choices then anneal out what you don't want. This will remove anything unwanted that was installed with BAIN. Provided BAIN was used to install them all.

If that is not what happened then I'm not sure what the problem is. What is installed is recorded in a file called installers.dat in the Bash folder of the Bash Installers folder (BAIN archive). If ever moving things around back that up.

Also you can reset the path that BAIN uses to look for this information to even another hard drive - just make sure it is not a hard drive that is asleep or not active or available when you click on the installers tab. You can do this with the Bash.ini (might have to create).

=========================================================

At some point I need to update a few of the opening posts with new links and call it done. Maybe this week.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:04 am

I'm guessing that after you moved and deleted the BAIN archives you then opened bash and the installers tab?

If so then you are going to have to reinstall all of it. If you are concerned that you won't recall what was installed - install all choices then anneal out what you don't want. This will remove anything unwanted that was installed with BAIN. Provided BAIN was used to install them all.

If that is not what happened then I'm not sure what the problem is. What is installed is recorded in a file called installers.dat in the Bash folder of the Bash Installers folder (BAIN archive). If ever moving things around back that up.

Also you can reset the path that BAIN uses to look for this information to even another hard drive - just make sure it is not a hard drive that is asleep or not active or available when you click on the installers tab. You can do this with the Bash.ini (might have to create).

=========================================================

At some point I need to update a few of the opening posts with new links and call it done. Maybe this week.

My thanks for your response,

Aye.... That I did. So I was never supposed to open the Installers Tab after removing the packages, was I? It makes sense, as I have it set to update every time I open the tab.... I do not know what I was thinking at the time, perhaps that the packages listed would somehow remain there? Maybe I was checking up on them.... Please don't answer that, but I do know I deserve a good scathing comment for that act of impulse. I did not know about the installers.dat file... I will have to remember that for any other things I do wrong. Is there a way using Bash to save a copy of this file for backup? If not, I can always copy the file itself and stow it away. The information that BAIN can find information stored on other drives is invaluable to me, as having 1 smaller capacity HDD sort of limits my options in space management. Hopefully I have learned something from all this....

Regards,
Sealwarrior

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:23 pm

Is there a way using Bash to save a copy of this file for backup? If not, I can always copy the file itself and stow it away. The information that BAIN can find information stored on other drives is invaluable to me, as having 1 smaller capacity HDD sort of limits my options in space management. Hopefully I have learned something from all this....

No shame, no blame ... It is all about learning.

No BAIN at this time does not backup that .dat file. So you are going to have to do it yourself.

There are plans for reassigning the location, but not for backing it up. You could suggest it in the WB thread where it will likely be seen better than here.

scathe

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:48 pm

I just want to thank you Psymon for this thread of very useful information.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:01 am

You're welcome

Wrye mash stand alone? Gonna have to check that out.

I need to update some things yet and remove the WIP status stuff and move on.

Notes to self - things to update:
More about BAIN wizards.
Recent changes in Wrye Bash + planned changes.
mTES 4 Manager info.
Oblivion Mod Manager extended updates.
Add some known well made BAIN packages to a list.
new TES4 POSItive site.
Alt3rn1ty visual tutorial.

probably other stuff.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:48 am

Psymon, is there a simple way to install Dark DarN UI through BAIN? I have the OMOD, but hate to install it (and then overwrite the other mods that modify menu.xml such as Enhanced Economy, Morrowind Lockpicking, Kyoma's Journal etc.) everytime I screw up something with the UI (has happened many times). It would be simpler to use the BAIN install for that mod - any tips on packaging it, or even better, a BCF for that mod?

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:50 am

Psymon, is there a simple way to install Dark DarN UI through BAIN? I have the OMOD, but hate to install it (and then overwrite the other mods that modify menu.xml such as Enhanced Economy, Morrowind Lockpicking, Kyoma's Journal etc.) everytime I screw up something with the UI (has happened many times). It would be simpler to use the BAIN install for that mod - any tips on packaging it, or even better, a BCF for that mod?

Well to begin with Wry himself made http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=22170. With INITweaks and all included.

From that version I made http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/957424-custom-bain-projects/page__view__findpost__p__13828712 that I trumpeted as an accomplishment some year and half ago (yikes). Really all I did was build upon what Wrye made.

My current version looks like this:

Spoiler

DarkUIDarn-BAIN   │   │   ├[05 Wrye Bash INI Tweaks for Darnified]   │   ├[10 Dark UI Darn Core]   │   ├[10 Darnified UI Core]   │   ├[15 Recolor UI - Black and Blood Red]   │   ├[15 Recolor UI - Black and Gold]   │   ├[15 Recolor UI - Dark Blue]   │   ├[15 Recolor UI - Dark Green]   │   ├[15 Recolor UI - Dark Wood]   │   ├[20 Classic Inventory Dark Darn]   │   ├[20 Classic Inventory Darn]   │   ├[21 Custom Fonts 1 Dark Darn]   │   ├[21 Custom Fonts 1 Darn]   │   ├[22 KCAS Level Menus Dark Darn]   │   ├[22 KCAS Level Menus Darn]   │   ├[23 Lighter Main Menu - Normal]   │   ├[23 Lighter Main Menu -Daedric]   │   ├[24 No 'Quest Added' Pop-ups Dark Darn]   │   ├[24 No 'Quest Added' Pop-ups Darn]   │   ├[25 DarkUI'd DarN Map Filters]   │   ├[25 DarNifiedUI Map Filters]   │   ├[26 Sneak and Crosshair Limiter]   │   ├[27 Lockpick No Auto Attempt]   │   ├[30 Dark UI Supplemental Pack]   │   ├[31 Dark UI Supplemental Videos]   │   ├[32 Dark UI Persuasion Dark Frame]   │   ├[32 Dark UI Persuasion Red Frame]   │   ├[32 Dark UI Persuasion Vanilla Smaller]   │   ├[33 Dark UI Persuasion Dark Background]   │   ├[35 Spiffy Loading Bar]   │   ├[36 Vertical Loading Bars]   │   ├[40 Improved No Crosshair]   │   ├[40 No Sneak Eye]   │   ├[41 Colored Enemy Health Bar]   │   ├[41 No Enemy Health Bar]   │   ├[45 Dynamic Crosshair - Normal]   │   ├[45 Dynamic Crosshair - Sniper]   │   ├[50 Map - Color]   │   ├[50 Map - Dark UI]   │   ├[50 Map - Elven]   │   ├[50 Map - Old Map]   │   ├[50 Map - SpewBoy]   │   ├[51 Map SI - Colored]   │   ├[51 Map SI - Elven]   │   ├[51 Map SI - Scroll Map]   │   ├[51 Map SI - SpewBoy]   │   ├[55 MapMarkers - Adnys]   │   ├[55 MapMarkers - Borderless]   │   ├[55 MapMarkers - Colored]   │   ├[55 MapMarkers - Dark UI]   │   ├[55 MapMarkers - Elven]   │   ├[55 MapMarkers - Vacuity Copper]   │   ├[55 MapMarkers - Vacuity Gold+Silver]   │   ├[55 MapMarkers - Vacuity Iron]   │   ├[55 MapMarkers - Vanilla]

Now I use OBMM for Map Marker Overhaul and EE and install those afterwards. Currently Quest log manager and Kyoma's Darnified UI additions conflict so I don't use Kyoma's Quest log manager I have installing after this. Same with Morrowind Lockpicking. (remember you can anneal changes if you decide to remove changes made by OMOD).

I have another BAIN package just for Loading screens:

Spoiler

Loading Screens-BAIN   │   ├[20 Atmospheric Loading Screens]   │   ├[21 Recolor ALS - Black and Blood Red]   │   ├[21 Recolor ALS - Black and Gold]   │   ├[21 Recolor ALS - Dark Blue]   │   ├[21 Recolor ALS - Dark Green]   │   ├[21 Recolor ALS - Dark Wood]   │   ├[22 Atmospheric Loading Screens - Theme Pack]   │   ├[30 Loading Screens - Themed LSTR]   │   ├[31 Loading Screens - LSTR Natural Selection]   │   ├[32 Alternate Loading Screens and Tips]   │   ├[32 Loading Screens - Floydian]   │   ├[32 Loading Screens - Floydian 2]   │   ├[32 Loading Screens - Floydian Dragons]   │   ├[32 Loading Screens - Floydian Kay]   │   ├[32 Loading Screens - Floydian Sia]   │   ├[32 Loading Screens - Floydian_Scenic]   │   ├[32 Loading Screens - GameRadar]   │   ├[32 Loading Screens - Remade]   │   ├[32 Loading Screens - Tiger Lilly]

Here is the BAIN package list section on UI:

Spoiler

Bain Packages:++ 000 - DLCOfficialMods-BAIN.7z (6195B9DE) (Installed)++ 001 - Unofficial Patches-BAIN.7z (D1F677DB) (Installed)002 - ==User Interface==++ 003 - Darnified Darkified UI-BAIN.7z (72C1A3B6) (Installed)-- 004 - DarNifiedUI_Additions-22163.zip (8AC7832C) (Not Installed)-- 005 - Immersive Interface-BAIN.7z (12830992) (Not Installed)++ 006 - Loading Screens-BAIN.7z (3D5228EE) (Installed)++ 007 - Display_Stats_1_3-31855.rar (235DAD1C) (Installed)-- 008 - HUD_Status_Bars_1_2-34905.rar (621517ED) (Not Installed)++ 009 - Quest_Log_Manager_1_3_1-32266.rar (8C556053) (Installed)++ 010 - QZ_Easy_Menus_1x03-23404.zip (148C4D49) (Installed)++ 011 - TQP_v3-2-0-12859.zip (BDC2F3A5) (Installed)++ 012 - Vacuity_03-29283.7z (BA666AEA) (Installed)

So I install early and right after the UOP.

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:33 pm

I guess you didn't have the time to check out Wrye Mash Stand Alone just yet.

Good point to change the status of this thread and possible add new interesting subjects.

I also want to know more about BAIN wizards so that's something I will be looking forward to.

What changes in Wrye Bash (planned changes)?

What do you mean by "Oblivion Mod Manager extended updates"? :unsure:

I think that's great to continuous adding good BAIN packages to that list.

Since this summer when I installed the first BAIN packages I've learn a lot about the features in Wrye Bash.
After a while I started to concentrate about the features in Wrye Mash of the backported BAIN feature from Wrye Bash to Wrye Mash.
Almost immediately I come to a conclusion that this acronym "BAIN" for Wrye Bash would sound rather silly in Wrye Mash "MAIN", so therefore I've come up with an alternative acronym "MPI" which fits both BAIN and MAIN. To be more precise MPI (archive) and it stands for "Mod Package Installer" and I think that could be accepted of both Wrye Bash & Wrye Mash.

I've already http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1100327-relz-pozzos-rise-of-house-telvanni-v14/page__view__findpost__p__16419019 this idea to bhl and he like it.

Is this also something that you would interested in?

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:40 pm

Wish I had the patience to add mods Morrowind, but I've tried and I guess I just don't find the game mechanics rewarding enough - even if modded.

Ah well. So no I've not yet checked Wrye Mash stand alone. But then I obviously have Python so ... :glare: ... Anyway I once heard Pacific Morrowind threaten to update Wrye Mash. If that happens I'll jump back in.

http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=32277 has been updated a few times and the last update actually offers BAIN like behavior in that when you install an omod it will ask you with each conflicting file (meshes, textures, etc) if you want to replace what is already installed. Now that is not near as advanced as Fallout Mod Manager which is even more precise than BAIN in that it allows you to either look all files installed via an explorer type window or on a mod by mod basis and then choose from each mod (and accounting for loose files) which files you want .. so you could say chose texture A from mod 1 or texture A from mod 2 and so on and even after both are installed.

With adequate familiarity FOMM is the most advanced, but it does lack the ability to view an 'all at once conflict report' with replacers. I suggested to Kaburke that he should put a poll up on this forum as to whether to port it to Oblivion and he got a pretty resounding no :facepalm:

As for BCF and Wizards - I'm not going to do much more than link to newer better information. I understand why people ask for them but I still advocate for the idea that modders should be sold on the idea and that better BAIN packaging serves all. Wizards I still don't get that much. It is like having your hand held on choosing sub-packages. It doesn't configure ini files and so OBMM wins out on that by far. Wizards basically make it so that it auto detects mods in the load order and picks options then asks you questions and chooses the options. I can't imagine needing that level of hand holding but that is me. To me good BAIN sub-packaging is more than sufficient. Besides the mods that have wizards already have great sub-packaging.

Changes in Bash and planned changes are tracked in the Wrye Bash thread, http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1119357-wipz-mtes4-manager/ thread, and tangentially the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1118767-nehrim-and-mods/ thread.

I'll leave name changes to the developers but I think BAIN has stuck. That is what it is called in Fallout3 and now New Vegas too.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:15 am

Thanks for your reply Psymon.

Wish I had the patience to add mods Morrowind, but I've tried and I guess I just don't find the game mechanics rewarding enough - even if modded.

Ah well. So no I've not yet checked Wrye Mash stand alone. But then I obviously have Python so ... :glare: ... Anyway I once heard Pacific Morrowind threaten to update Wrye Mash. If that happens I'll jump back in.

That's great because Wrye Mash really need an updated version. :nod:

http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=32277 has been updated a few times and the last update actually offers BAIN like behavior in that when you install an omod it will ask you with each conflicting file (meshes, textures, etc) if you want to replace what is already installed. Now that is not near as advanced as Fallout Mod Manager which is even more precise than BAIN in that it allows you to either look all files installed via an explorer type window or on a mod by mod basis and then choose from each mod (and accounting for loose files) which files you want .. so you could say chose texture A from mod 1 or texture A from mod 2 and so on and even after both are installed.

With adequate familiarity FOMM is the most advanced, but it does lack the ability to view an 'all at once conflict report' with replacers. I suggested to Kaburke that he should put a poll up on this forum as to whether to port it to Oblivion and he got a pretty resounding no :facepalm:

I thought that you mean the updating mods feature which is included in OBMM-Extended. I just misunderstood you about OBMM-ext updates.

As for BCF and Wizards - I'm not going to do much more than link to newer better information. I understand why people ask for them but I still advocate for the idea that modders should be sold on the idea and that better BAIN packaging serves all. Wizards I still don't get that much. It is like having your hand held on choosing sub-packages. It doesn't configure ini files and so OBMM wins out on that by far. Wizards basically make it so that it auto detects mods in the load order and picks options then asks you questions and chooses the options. I can't imagine needing that level of hand holding but that is me. To me good BAIN sub-packaging is more than sufficient. Besides the mods that have wizards already have great sub-packaging.

Perhaps a dumb question, but what's "BCF"? :unsure:

Changes in Bash and planned changes are tracked in the Wrye Bash thread, http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1119357-wipz-mtes4-manager/ thread, and tangentially the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1118767-nehrim-and-mods/ thread.

I'll leave name changes to the developers but I think BAIN has stuck. That is what it is called in Fallout3 and now New Vegas too.

I see. Oh well I wasn't surprised over that BAIN is stuck.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:41 am

Perhaps a dumb question, but what's "BCF"? :unsure:

BCF = http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/page__view__findpost__p__15797993 like an omod script - converts an archive to a BAIN ready package. Again I advocate repacking by hand and or encouraging the release of BAIN ready archives. ... though truthfully I've had not much success in trying to convince some that it is a great thing.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1129389-relzwipzbeta-wrye-flash-nv/ and I'm certain that Valda will get the bashed patch happening sooner than later.

It is weird though - with Oblivion Wrye Bash is a standard, a necessity but the BAIN part is not often utilized - And I've seen flat out resistance to releasing BAIN ready archives. With Fallout 3 even though Bash was late in the making people preferred FO3edit and other utilities to Bash and because FOMM was so good and still being developed as of very recently no overahul authors and very very few modders of any stripe used Wrye Flash or implemented tags. So I've seen resistance to Bash in several forms. I know in morrowind it seems no one really uses BAIN.

I'm hoping with having Bash for NV up sooner that this will not be the case. Regardless I'm waiting before I play New Vegas.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:03 am

BCF = http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/page__view__findpost__p__15797993 like an omod script - converts an archive to a BAIN ready package. Again I advocate repacking by hand and or encouraging the release of BAIN ready archives. ... though truthfully I've had not much success in trying to convince some that it is a great thing.

I'm so silly because you have it explained in the OP. :blush2: :facepalm:

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1129389-relzwipzbeta-wrye-flash-nv/ and I'm certain that Valda will get the bashed patch happening sooner than later.

Perhaps we should head over there and give them a lesson of how to use Wrye Bash.

It is weird though - with Oblivion Wrye Bash is a standard, a necessity but the BAIN part is not often utilized - And I've seen flat out resistance to releasing BAIN ready archives. With Fallout 3 even though Bash was late in the making people preferred FO3edit and other utilities to Bash and because FOMM was so good and still being developed as of very recently no overahul authors and very very few modders of any stripe used Wrye Flash or implemented tags. So I've seen resistance to Bash in several forms. I know in morrowind it seems no one really uses BAIN.

You're wrong because I now use that wonderful feature of BAIN in Wrye Mash and I've even started a new project called tompi.

Spoiler

tompi - template of mod pakcage installer

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:23 pm

BCF = http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/page__view__findpost__p__15797993 like an omod script - converts an archive to a BAIN ready package. Again I advocate repacking by hand and or encouraging the release of BAIN ready archives. ... though truthfully I've had not much success in trying to convince some that it is a great thing.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1129389-relzwipzbeta-wrye-flash-nv/ and I'm certain that Valda will get the bashed patch happening sooner than later.

It is weird though - with Oblivion Wrye Bash is a standard, a necessity but the BAIN part is not often utilized - And I've seen flat out resistance to releasing BAIN ready archives. With Fallout 3 even though Bash was late in the making people preferred FO3edit and other utilities to Bash and because FOMM was so good and still being developed as of very recently no overahul authors and very very few modders of any stripe used Wrye Flash or implemented tags. So I've seen resistance to Bash in several forms. I know in morrowind it seems no one really uses BAIN.

I'm hoping with having Bash for NV up sooner that this will not be the case. Regardless I'm waiting before I play New Vegas.

BCF's are not meant as any sort of replacement for BAIN packages. They are a bridge between complex mod compilations that are not BAIN ready and BAIN packages. It's not practical for everybody to reproduce all the manual steps needed to build a BAIN compilation. It's not practical to re-upload and host a huge mod just so it can be offered BAIN-ready either. Especially if it is a compilation from different authors, like FCOM. It also avoids any possibility of copyright infringement.

BAIN Wizards should offer things like ini tweaks, but that is besides the point I'd like to make.
There are many cases where a BAIN wizard is more desirable than a rather simple BAIN package (even if it's classified as complex, meh. I have things to be said about what could be done with BAIN package structures.. sorry I'm rambling a bit

).
The hackish method in which subpackages are classified is one of the things that makes my lip curl. Subpackaging is fine when everything is inclusive, but no very elegant at all when any subpackages are exclusive of another.
This is where wizards come in (although I think the subpackaging format could use a good brainstorm). With a wizard, the exclusive options can be presented in a way that it's clear to the user what they are doing without having to be knee deep in documentation for every mod they install.
Try making the HGEC body mod into an intuitive BAIN-ready package with all the body type options included, for much simpler example than something like FCOM.

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:46 pm

While I agree that it is not practical for everyone to release (or more aptly re-release) all BAIN ready packages - the dialogue piece that you might be missing is team FCOM basically telling me to stuff it and other general insults.

It got to the point that I'd see thread after thread of people asking 'how do I install FCOM?' and then FCOM team members would climb all over these new guys and say 'why aren't you posting in the FCOM thread?' And general berating of questions for not RTFM. Then look at FCOM where most of the parts are in the hands of a very few people who can control how it is packaged, but opt to keep 3 different install methods (by hand, exe, and if using 3rd party scripts OMOD). They and many other modders can take the the couple of hours required to learn how to package a BAIN package and release it so that this overhaul (that already requires Wrye Bash) can utilize BAIN to provide a uniform install method and thereby greatly reduce the number of questions and confusions and in turn reduce the number of posts about why people aren't posting in one place.

Granted Dev_Akm is long gone and we all get busy - I understand that, but really what does it take to just check in for 5 minutes and make a post. Francesco did that and so did Oscuro at one point. Francesco gave permission for repackaging and whatever a few months ago. So my conclusion is that with the FCOM example it is self-induced and until they get it together to make a central location for information and a uniform method of installing all the component parts they get what they ask for (a lot of confusion on the mod user end). Ultimately it is none of my business except that I too don't like useless 5 post threads asking what has been asked 1000 times before. I removed all previous examples of how to BAIN FCOM.

Other things I've read are that Bash is way to complicated to ask of the average user, that modders would rather not have to worry about how a mod is packaged, that BAIN is too new and so on. Well BAIN has been around for about 2 years and I know I wrote http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/957424-custom-bain-projects/ on it almost two years ago. It is ready to go with Morrowind, Oblivion, both Fallout games, and now Nehrim too. I can think of many instances where modders went back and repackaged with OMODs and scripted installs but no not with BAIN even though it would be easier. I can also think of many instances where mods were repackaged as OMODs by other people and uploaded. The only instance I can think of with BAIN is http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=22170. He really wanted to promote the new installer as something to encourage modders to adapt to and really this is what these two threads have been about. Carrying on that intention.

What I find interesting is knowing the few modders on here that I've had opportunity to chat with and such - those that prefer to do manual installing end up making the most thorough BAIN ready packages. Better packaging upon release is what leads to less noob questions by the user.[/end rant]

Alright back on topic with what is practical. I'm curious what you mean by subpackaging hackish behavior. I recall Wrye really thinking that through and have done so a lot myself. Here is a comprehensive HGEC BAIN package I have is the EVE for FCOM package:

Spoiler

EVE Compilation-BAIN   ├[00 EVE Stock Replacer Core]   ├[01 Body Textures]   ├[10 EBE E-Cup nvde]   ├[10 EBE E-Cup Underwear]   ├[10 Normal C-Cup nvde]   ├[10 Normal C-Cup Underwear]   ├[10 Normal E-Cup nvde]   ├[10 Normal E-Cup Underwear]   ├[15 Lowerbody EBE nvde]   ├[15 Lowerbody EBE Underwear]   ├[15 Lowerbody Normal nvde]   ├[15 Lowerbody Normal Underwear]   ├[15 Lowerbody Wide nvde]   ├[15 Lowerbody Wide Underwear]   ├[20 Equipment Replacer Upperbody - EBE E-Cup]   ├[20 Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal C-Cup]   ├[20 Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal E-Cup]   ├[21 Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal C-Cup Alt]   ├[25 Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - EBE]   ├[25 Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Normal]   ├[25 Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Wide]   ├[30 ---- FCOM EVE Core -----Use with FCOM--]   ├[40 ---- OOO EVE Core -------Plus one of the following]   ├[41 OOO Equipment Replacer Upperbody - EBE E-Cup]   ├[41 OOO Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal C-Cup]   ├[41 OOO Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal E-Cup]   ├[42 OOO Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - EBE]   ├[42 OOO Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Normal]   ├[42 OOO Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Wide]   ├[50 ---- FRANS EVE Core ----Plus one of the following]   ├[51 FRANS Equipment Replacer Upperbody - EBE E-Cup]   ├[51 FRANS Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal C-Cup]   ├[51 FRANS Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal E-Cup]   ├[52 FRANS Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - EBE]   ├[52 FRANS Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Normal]   ├[52 FRANS Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Wide]   ├[60 ---- MMM Eve Core -----Plus one of the following]   ├[61 MMM Equipment Replacer Upperbody - EBE E-Cup]   ├[61 MMM Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal C-Cup]   ├[61 MMM Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal E-Cup]   ├[62 MMM Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - EBE]   ├[62 MMM Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Normal]   ├[62 MMM Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Wide]   ├[70 ---- Armamentarium EVE Core ----Plus one of the following]   ├[71 ARMA Equipment Replacer Upperbody - EBE E-Cup]   ├[71 ARMA Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal C-Cup]   ├[71 ARMA Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal E-Cup]   ├[72 ARMA Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - EBE]   ├[72 ARMA Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Normal]   ├[72 ARMA Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Wide]   ├[80 ---- Artifacts EVE Core ----Plus one of the following]   ├[81 Equipment Replacer Upperbody - EBE E-Cup]   ├[81 Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal C-Cup]   ├[81 Equipment Replacer Upperbody - Normal E-Cup]   ├[82 Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - EBE]   ├[82 Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Normal]   ├[82 Equipment Replacer Lowerbody - Wide]

Notice that if the packages are exclusive of each other they have the same number. That is precisely what Wrye advised doing. If they are not exclusive then use different alpha-numeric naming of sub-packages. Actually Roberts male is much more difficult to translate:

Spoiler

Roberts Male 4-BAIN   ├[00 Roberts Male v4 Core]   ├[01 Beautiful People Compatibility]   ├[05 Optional Idles]   ├[06 Human Head]   ├[07 Orc Head]   ├[08 Better Necklines]   ├[10 Average nvde BASE]   ├[11 Average Cothed - Pants 1]   ├[11 Average Cothed - Pants 2]   ├[11 Average Cothed - Pants 3]   ├[20 Muscular nvde BASE]   ├[21 Muscular Clothed - Pants 1]   ├[21 Muscular Clothed - Pants 2]   ├[21 Muscular Clothed - Pants 3]   ├[21 Muscular Clothed - Pants 4]   ├[21 Muscular Clothed - Pants 5]   ├[22 Muscular Sandals]   ├[30 Slender nvde BASE]   ├[31 Slender Clothed - Pants 1]   ├[31 Slender Clothed - Pants 2]   ├[31 Slender Clothed - Pants 3]   ├[40 Breeze Defined Male Body - nvde]   ├[41 Breeze Defined Male Body - clothed]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Breton]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Dark Seducer]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Darkelf]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Dremora]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Golden Saint]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Highelf]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Imperial]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Nords]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Orcs]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Redgaurds]   ├[41 BreezeVascularBody - Woodelf]   ├[45 GhogielDefinedMaps for Roberts Male]   ├[46 Durza Roberts male v4 - less muscular for Slender]   ├[50 Roberts Average Stock Clothes and Armor]   ├[50 Roberts Muscular Stock Clothes and Armor]   ├[51 Roberts Muscular FCOM Armor]

Mostly because of how it was originally packaged with alternate versions buried in the meshes and textures with alternate names and folders. Even actually already is much easier to package.

Do you have a better suggestion for sub-package logic?

Either way repackaging is simpler when many many are going to request it. Why I advocate requesting or making your own packages is really detailed in my opening posts. Haven't changed my mind on it. The philosophical approach is to automate what one would be doing by hand and therefore a promotion of the manual installing mindset. I'm not arguing against the creation or development of wizards or BCF - I just won't use them much.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:56 am

While I agree that it is not practical for everyone to release (or more aptly re-release) all BAIN ready packages - the dialogue piece that you might be missing is team FCOM basically telling me to stuff it and other general insults.

Well we can't force people to cooperate. Alot of people really aren't interested in spending the time to learn anything. Especially when all they want to do is play a game, the very opposite activity to learning. Learning is not relaxing for most people.
Bash certainly isn't exactly a user friendly tool either. Even taking into account what it is capable of, it really is alot more cumbersome than it needs to be.

Alright back on topic with what is practical. I'm curious what you mean by subpackaging hackish behavior. I recall Wrye really thinking that through and have done so a lot myself. Here is a comprehensive HGEC BAIN package I have is the EVE for FCOM package:

I think you missed the point I was trying to make about exclusive subpackages

You are assuming that everyone is familiar with an unofficial prefix standardization. Even so, it's somewhat limited and feels a bit archaic compared to how sophisticated Bash is. Like you need a decoder ring to figure out what subpackages to install. I understand the prefix notation but it isn't exactly intuitive or friendly. BAIN actually only supports ordering subpackages by name, nothing more. The prefix standardization is an afterthought. A bandaid for this problem and not even officially supported. That is why it is hackish.
I don't see anything wrong with using prefixes to be clear, but they need to be officially supported and actually affect how a user makes choices.

Do you have a better suggestion for sub-package logic?

Yes.

Either way repackaging is simpler when many many are going to request it. Why I advocate requesting or making your own packages is really detailed in my opening posts. Haven't changed my mind on it. The philosophical approach is to automate what one would be doing by hand and therefore a promotion of the manual installing mindset. I'm not arguing against the creation or development of wizards or BCF - I just won't use them much.

Yes, I read your OP

I think you might want to rephrase, because it sounds like you are suggesting that people create their own BAIN packages instead of using a BCF or a BAIN wizard. I'm understanding that you just mean for archives that are not already BAIN-friendly. Omods, etc.