Umm - OK

Scripting features are in development - just read the forums you will find info on it - a good start is http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1168606-wizbain-projects/. I was waiting for further development before I go back and revise sections of this thread (hence warnings at the top).

There are already BAIN wizards for scripted installs - not a lot but they exist. Check http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19628 out. Also as of the last Bash revision BAIN does handle OBSE plugins.

As for why there are a lot of omods is because BAIN has only been around for not even half as long as OBMM and hence most of the initial modding rush utilized that format. Things are changing as the modding scene gets more complex and users more sophisticated.

You are of course welcome to your opinion of things, but I will point out a flaw in your reasoning. Oblivion is not a plug and play game. OBMM gives the false impression that this is so. But what is convenient to use about OBMM has to do with mod makers take the time to package it with OBMM to make it seem a simple thing but it is not and OBMM hides much. So much in fact that until you make the leap to BAIN you don't know what your missing.

I break it down like this. If you can successfully mod your game you are a modder (even if just applying the mods others make). If you make mods - a mod maker. If you rely on others to mod your game and hold your hand through scripted installs then the label mod user applies. BAIN is for modders - those that look under the hood and take responsibility for their own installs and load order.

It is not a popularity contest either. Utility is the goal with BAIN not ease.

Along with Metallicow's project to educate on Wizard scripting, if anyone has not seen it yet Malonn http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37230#fileanchor

@Psymon

Your obsession for BAIN doesn't let you interpret mere references as examples does it? It is not a popularity contest, but IT IS one of the reasons OBMM is used more along with the fact that OBMM has been around for over 4 years where as BAIN has been around for around 1 year only. Casual modders would rather use the easiest utility.

OBMM does not hide that much under the hood if you actually look through the .omod content. It is more rustic in that aspect. Besides, if you have normal knowledge about modding oblivion, there is no need to get deeper if you are not going to make a mod or configure one for your own needs. OBMM may hide some things, but you are not seeing the point of view of MOST of the "modders" as you call them. They go to a page, download the mod, install it, fix the load order and that's it, that's how that kind of mod users think and expect mods to be. (I have tried this way and again, there's nothing wrong with it)

But don't get me wrong, I LOVE BAIN and I agree with you TOTALLY that BAIN is superior to OBMM. If mod users were not lazy and/or used to the comfy OMODS scripts, people would move to BAIN faster. The only problem is that when it comes to complicated mods such as OOO or Enhanced Economy, you are pretty much on your own to make it a BAIN-friendly package (yes, i have read readmes and instructions but the omod script is still better, and we are lucky there are sites such as tesivpositive that have made a complete guide on how to install FCOM with BAIN).

I have tried both OBMM and BAIN, and well I simply feel more secured with BAIN. And my argument is not against yours, it is in favor of yours, but I just don't like to see people bash OBMM and say it is VITAL to move to BAIN, because it is not.

Oh, and thank you for the information, I did not know that the version 291 can handle OBSE.

As I said you are welcome to your opinions. Please have them. Consider though that other than your opinion - I'm failing to see what you are bringing to the table in terms of insight and new information ... or more importantly, questions about how to use BAIN which is what this thread is about.

Check the date on my http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/957424-custom-bain-projects/ You might notice it says 17 February 2009 BAIN was already in development for the previous 4 months or so. Hence BAIN has been around since late 2008. It is you that are late to the party.

The flaw I was pointing to was in your reasoning/argument not in the design choices of OBMM. You already had a few points wrong that was another.

As to why you should check for more - if you don't know already - for problems. If everything is working fine then yipee skippie, but I know BAIN was not designed for this purpose. It was designed with the aim or returning thinking about installs to a hands on manual approach.

My obsession indeed. Why is it that everyone these days wants to have pseudo philosophical debates online and always end up resorting to insults? So do you really have anything to contribute here or is it that it rubbed you the wrong way my points in the opening posts? Seriously opinions aside.

And having seen your edits above ...completely changing the confrontational tone. ::sigh:: I use both as well and state so several times. What is your point?

What is VITAL is that if one wanted to use both that they understand that conflict report status will be minimized as well. You can do whatever you want with your install. If you want to promote OBMM - run, skip, hop to the new thread button.

Insults? Excuse me, I have not insulted you, i just suggested that you cannot make a guide and every time somebody does not fully support your ideas of BAIN you resort to your mere preference (aside from the valid facts that you mention)

Questions about how to use BAIN? Ok, when you have a mod and a patch (OOO 1.33 and the patch OOO 1.34 beta) the patch has the ===lesser=== tag, does that mean that it just overwrites the main mod or you have to change it manually? Or you just install it and it will overwrite the main mod automatically?

I did not resorted to insults, if something insulted you then I apologize. And yes I had an initial questions that you answered already, I did not know that version 291 could handle OBSE. I was merely comparing OBMM and BAIN from a technical point of view and not from my own preference. If I had use my own opinion I would have just said "BAIN all the way! yaaay" I have nothing technical or new to contribute for now, BAIN is working perfectly and once you get to work with it a little you won't probably go back to OBMM (well, maybe for shaders (i don't know if this was fixed already) and mods like Enhanced Economy that I am way too lazy to figure out how to manually install them)

EDIT: I changed the confrontational tone because IT DID NOT contribute to the thread in any way. And as I said before, I do not promote OBMM, I would likely promote BAIN. I am not at home, and I'm doing work so I get a few minutes to answer the thread so my thoughts are not clear, so excuse me for that.

The later installing package (see post 5 for explanation) will only overwrite the files that are the same in both packages.

If an earlier mod has loose files and a later mod a BSA that could pose a problem. Best to repackage in such an instance.

Last time I checked (and it is my profession) obsessions are a form of mental illness. I should have quoted your post - I'll remember that.

Oh ok I wasn't sure which option I had to click for the files to overwrite the original ones. Thanks.

And about the obsession thing, for heaven's sake I did not call you mentally incapacitated or anything, if you are going to use medical terms then that's something else. Obsession (commonly speaking) is a reference to your...lets say... "unconditional adoration" to a specific thing. So don't take it as an insult, because it is not.

It is not an option - later installing files overwrite earlier ones just like with mods - the formIDs from later loading mods overwrite the formIDs of earlier loading mods. Same principle.

Function by design. Omods don't offer that - even with Oblivion Mod Manager extended it is only offered per install of the omod (as I understand it).

Go write a thread and be as thorough as you can be - do it not for pay - certainly not praise - then have someone post and say you have an obsession. I've made no attempt to hide by preference even to the point of calling it a bias. Why shouldn't a thread designed to promote BAIN be biased to the use of BAIN?

Why should I take any crap?

True true, at the beginning I had conflicts with OBMM because I would uninstall patches and they would delete the core files as well.

About the obsession thing, if you want to take it as an insult, I can't do nothing about it. There's nothing wrong with your guide showing your preference for BAIN, I only pointed out that you shouldn't do that when someone is discussing with you about OBMM and BAIN. Anyways, can you just leave that behind? It's over, past, I already told you I apologize if it insulted you, I had no idea it would. And I have also thanked you for the guide, because of how well constructed it is, it is certainly one of the best resources for newbies out there who are ready to move to BAIN.

Yeah I'm over it - just really pointing out how it came across. Apology accepted - though not really needed.

And why shouldn't I show a preference to BAIN? http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1168952-get-random-crashes-with-these-mods/page__view__findpost__p__17237677. A large chunk of the first post is about the differences between OBMM and BAIN - And I give a list of things (slowly being outdated - need to revise) that OBMM can do that BAIN cannot.

I don't understand your point basically.A lot of features BAIN has are directly related to what doesn't work with OBMM. It is the next step but a step that likely would not have occurred if not for what was already implemented in OBMM.

I even recall Timeslip posting in the early BAIN threads telling Wrye to run with it so he could retire OBMM. What do people want a monument? There are already many sites and tutorials for OBMM.

Stop should-ing on me about this.

Ok last time I'll say it. You shouldn't use your preferences WHEN discussing technical points between the two. That's all. That's like if you ask me why do I think BAIN is superior to OBMM and I say "Because I love BAIN it's so much cooler!" Got it? Besides, you pretty much used a lot of valid facts I just pointed out one flaw, just like you did in my argument. If you can't receive a "should" the nice way, then I won't should you anymore if that's what you wish. This tedious (and pointless as you said) discussion is over, people come here for BAIN help, not to see us discussing about this. Thanks for the info and the guide.

snip Why should I be the least be concerned about maintaining objectivity in discourse concerning a hobby? I'm not getting paid for this. My professional reputation is not on the line.

Besides I've laid all the pros and cons out in the first post ... if I post it is in response to either a direct question to point out facts about the two.

Why aren't you going after mod makers because they are fans of their own mods or fans who prefer one mod over the other. This is hardly a foreign attitude around here. As I recall your post stated this: snip

To follow up on a point a few posts above.

I just installed the latest OBGE with shaders, shaderlist, obse plugin, and all the rest using BAIN.

Will try to find time in the future to add more about wizards as that seems the hot topic lately and revise some of the opening posts.