BAIN (Wrye Flash Mod Installer) – First impressions & questions

An installation of mods with http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11336 instead of FOMM has some advantages, see here

Psymon's manual: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/

.. and is, in most cases, pretty simple to do.

A 101 of BAIN's usage is http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35230, written for Wrye Bash but applicable to Wrye Flash nonetheless.

A mod like "http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13325" (with just two files: 1. Impervious Power Armour.esm, 2. Impervious Power Armour README.txt) is as easily prepared to add via BAIN than via FOMM and even a rather large mod like "http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14773" is no problem: Just collect the necessary files into one folder-structure, the compatibility patches into the next and the optional "Apocalypse Armory - Optional Historical Names.esp" into a third and you're ready to go.

However, the mods that include optionals led to a question that might look stupid to an experienced user but left me wondering:

1. How do I add commentary into a package to see it displayed immediately within the "Installers"-tab when I select the mod?
If a mod includes many alternative or optional files, organized in a complex structure, it's simply a must to have a README ready and the Comments-field in Wrye Flash would be perfect to display crucial information added to the packages prior to installation.

In FOMM, it's easy to look up the installation-information because the readme is either at your finger-tips or the installation is scripted to help a user choose among alternative and/or optional files. In BAIN, you can check all the files you want to install, so there is less need for a scripted procedure but documentation at a glance is as important.


The first problem with an adaptation of a mod toward BAIN came with "http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15653" – that one changes the HUD; easily done with the FOMOD-version, but

2. How to do that in BAIN?

The "Unified HUD Project" adds a mod that makes a couple of HUD-altering mods compatible, including the one mentioned, but that too is perfectly adapted to be used in FOMM; to do the same in BAIN looks more complicated .. if the DarkUI-section in Alt3rn1ty's third manual is any indication of the process involved.

It looks to me as if I'd better stick to a fomod, whenever a mod makes changes to XML-files. Or am I wrong?

1. Bottom-right of the installers tab has a window ('Comments') where you can paste notes for each package. I only use it occasionally for critical information but I guess you can paste a whole readme if you want. If you double-click an esp in the mods tab, you get the Doc Browser - not as convenient as FOMM but alright.

2. I use FOMM for DarNified UI and Unified HUD Project. They work well with little effort - use the best tool for the job I say

Actually after I check I did make a Darn UI BAIN package .... what seems to be not working is the INI Tweaks. Wetblanket - did you make INI Tweaks for your?

To make them ether you can do those by hand or you can learn to make and install your own INI tweaks.

A good place to start on that is to download the http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=22170 and look at the files and folder structure for INI Tweaks. Once they are formatted and installed correctly then you can change then in the INI tab.

I check mu BAIN package now and I see that the issue is that Wrye Flash is not recognizing that sub-package. So either it is a shortcoming of Wrye Flash or I did something wrong that I don't see.

I forget if I reported that to Valda.

As for mods that require editing of xml files - you would have to either go ahead and edit them yourself then repackage in sub-packages the variants or do what I gave up and did and do a combination of altering by hand as needed or just using FOMM. Both FOMM and OBMM still have uses.

DarN related? No, I just install DarN UI with FOMM on the default ini settings, simple and quick and no thinking required. Unified HUD aside, I use BAIN for everything else though.

As I posted in the Wrye Flash thread - I don't think F3 BAIN recognizes INI tweaks.

Which means that a complete Darn UI BAIN package won't work. I was hoping to get another person to try and make/use INI Tweaks ... so if anyone wants to see if they will work http://www.4shared.com/file/NfxqNHin/Darn_UI_INI_Tweaks.html and put in BAIN and see if they install.

Make sure to check has extra directories in the context menu of the package.

If they don't install and you see no issue with my packaging please report in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1211142-relz-wrye-flash/.

Thanks. So, there is no yet undocumented feature that lets me use the "Comments"-field within the "Installers"-tab to display automatically a pre-written readme added to the package during its composition? Thought so. Would be a nice addition, though.




It's indeed far more effective to use FOMM then. It would have been perfect if there were a way to adapt the information in fomod regarding xmls into some kind of BAIN-script (yeah, I know, not how it's supposed to work). But doing this all manually by adding as many sub-packages as needed to address all variations is inefficient in the extreme. And I am not quite sure about the de-installation success .. But XML-files have always been tricky when a multitude of mods adds or overwrites information within.

Well Wrye purposefully designed Wrye Bash to not handle scripted Installs, shader Editing, and file renaming (and a few other things) with the express concern that he did not want to outdate or compete with OBMM.

Since he left and passed on care to other developers they have implemented scripted installs - but only of what sub-packages get installed. They don't edit ini files or shaders or xml files ... yet (who knows if ever).

I the comments section does not work post in the Wrye Flash thread. I never used it myself.

see post above about INI tweaks.

I did a quick test BAIN and can install an ini tweak as long as there's an esp or doc etc. I've downloaded your file Psymon and will have a play.


Works for me...

edit. Your file has nothing but ini tweaks. When I do that it doesn't recognise it but, as I said above, including other files avoids that problem.

Yes after repackaging with the INI tweaks in the core sub-package it works.

Good to know - thanks

Seconded.

I have expressed myself poorly regarding the Comments-field. I can add comments to packages, no problem. I was just curious to know if I could add a comment to the package (and not to the comment-field) that would then automatically be displayed in the Comments-field as soon as I select the package.

Let me give an example: The already mentioned mod "Apocalypse Armory" includes the "Apocalypse Armory - Optional Historical Names.esp" This ESP should not be used when EVE is installed, according to the readme. So, it'd be nice if I could add a note to the appropriate sub-package and that note were displayed automatically (either within the Comments-field, a pop-up window or something similar) when selecting the sub-package, so that I'd be reminded of that incompatibility.

Having re-read your original post, it's more a case of me reading poorly...

Nah, I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

One little curiosity that I'd like to mention as a new user of BAIN. When you add packages for the first time and the Installers-tab displays a red square icon and "Missing Files" are mentioned, the first reaction is a hesitant: "What? I didn't forget any file at all!?" Yeah, that's not what is meant but I'm sure I'm not the only one who was confused at first. The information is perfectly logical but a bit counter-intuitive for a beginner.

I do this by how I name the sub-packages ... as in:
15 Optional Historical Names (don't use with EVE)

No I don't think that the comments field can be used that way - though people have requested it.

Almost verbatim what I have done. Not surprising, I did read your manual, after all. Thanks again for that one; the naming conventions were all useful.

Still, if the list of incompatibilities or other crucial information gets a bit more complex, that approach will look awkward at some point. If there were a poll, I'd vote "yea" to add that feature to 'Comments'.

Valda has implemented some essential features for Fallout 3 and I by no means want to come off like I'm diminishing his contribution, but what he has done is essentially a port of the program from Oblivion's Wrye Bash.

If you want to make a feature request head on over to the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1236811-relz-wrye-bash/ and make it there. I could see a tabbed comment section tab 1 what you want to enter now, tab 2 what is read from a package.txt file or something.

It is not so outlandish a request and it is one of the most active areas of modding for Oblivion today with a team of modders taking turns going at it near daily. I've made several requests some of which have been accommodated. Couldn't hurt to ask.

And you're welcome.

I only have the unified HUD project installed via FOMM. I think what Gopher did was create an XML file for every variation of the mods which alter that particular file, i.e. a lot of different files. It would be possible to do a BAIN archive of them but, man, would it be complicated confusing and time consuming to install - never mind create!

Ah, I was already wondering where I could make such a request. If you don't mind, I'll add your idea about a tabbed comments-field to my post. And it'd make things even smoother if the tab that already contained or had access to information was automatically selected. If both tabs do, a priority-list (comments first, package.txt second) organizes the hierarchy of displaying information.

Just be patient ... they have a lot on their plates - some things get high priority (like converting the bashing over to using C instead of Python for CBash) and retrofitting the UI components. Menus also were recently discussed quite a bit too. Other things not as much but they do take requests - just not all.

Oh yes, it's not a request that should have highest priority. There are not that many esps that can only be added in the first week of a month at high tide under a full moon while wolves are howling (digital reproduction permitted) and you dance somewhat naked but painted in tartan patterns around a fire with one of Undine's sisters (replica NOT permitted).

Try do add those requirements to a folder name!

[Shouldn't have visited the Oblivion-forum]

added:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1236811-relz-wrye-bash/page__view__findpost__p__18934174 made, btw. Also added a sentence that any stupidity involved with the request is my doing (I mentioned your name, so it should be made obvious that any misconception is mine).

Update:

In the little time available in the past week, I've "played" more with BAIN than in Fallout. Ah, new toys.

Users who have not yet tried BAIN might be interested to hear from a newbie if it's worth the time and effort – and how much of both it likely costs to install all or most of your mods with BAIN instead of FOMM.

Time and effort

I hate to start vague but it depends largely on the amount of mods you want to repackage to make them BAIN-ready, their complexity and the file-organization used by the mod-author.

Two examples:

1) http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1854:

This still popular mod can be downloaded at the Nexus as a "Sprint_Mod-1854.zip". This Mod is already packaged in a BAIN-friendly way; it contains the following folders "[*]" and files:

[sound]
[textures]
Sprint Mod.esp
SprintReadme.txt

This organization of data can be used by BAIN immediately to install the mod correctly. You might collect the data into two numbered folders, the "00 Core Files" (everything but the txt) and the "10 Docs" but it's not necessary (alternative numbering schemes are equally usable) - BAIN starts in the data-directory, so it will add the files and folders into correct positions as long as your folder-hierarchy reflects BAIN's assumption correctly.

I simply repacked the zip into a 7zip to have all my mods use the same package-format and renamed it [GAPL Sprint Mod v1 -BN] to follow the conventions of my particular naming scheme (doesn't matter how you decide to name the packages as long as you can identify them easily and unambiguously even months later).

2. http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=7565

This small but far-reaching Overhaul Mod was more work-extensive. The current "Arwen_Tweaks_5_9-7565-5-9.zip" has a fomod-ready organization but that one differs a lot from a BAIN-friendly package.

[data]
-- [fomod]
-- [menus]
-- [Meshes]
-- [sound]
-- [Textures]
Arwen_Brahamin_Med-Tec_Patch.esp
Arwen_Compatibility_Patches.txt
Arwen_Core.esm
Arwen_Encumbrance.esp
Arwen_EVE_Patch.esp
Arwen_GOTY_Hard-Core.esp
Arwen_GOTY_Med-Tec.esp
Arwen_GOTY_Realism_Core.esp
Arwen_Hard-Core.esp
Arwen_Med-Tec.esp
Arwen_MMM_Med-Tec_Patch.esp
Arwen_MMM_Patch.esp
Arwen_OneLife.esp
Arwen_Realism_Core.esp
Arwen_Tweaks_ReadMe.txt
Arwen_Tweaks_Version_History.txt
Arwen's Realism Tweaks User Guide.doc

To use the mod in BAIN, the primary [data]-folder needs to go (or you won't see any files at all in the Installers-tab) and the [fomod]-folder has no use, but in principle and if you know the mod very well, you could almost leave everything else as it is, but that's definitely not what I'd recommend.

Much better to reorganize the files into the core components that are necessary for the mod to work and move compatibility patches, optional files and alternative versions of the same file into sub packages, so that the numbering and the folder name tell you what the specific file or files is/are doing.

I decided to use the same number, whenever alternative files were present that can not be used simultaneously, though "Core files" is a necessary installation in every BAIN-package.

[00 Core files]
-- [Docs]
---- [ART_5_9]
-- [menus]
-- [Meshes]
-- [sound]
-- [Textures]
-- Arwen_Core.esm
[00 Realism Core]
-- Arwen_Realism_Core.esp
[00 Realism Core GOTY]
-- Arwen_GOTY_Realism_Core.esp

This scheme tells me immediately what I absolutely need to install "[00 Core files]" and that two alternatives exist of a file or files (and folders) that also must be installed for the mod to work at all - but NOT together.

I followed the same logic for the optional Hard Core Mod; the pretty long folder name gives me an idea what that mod is supposed to do:

[10 Optional Mod Hard-Core (less points, bonuses, goods; adds gender bon-pen)]
-- Arwen_Hard-Core.esp

[10 Optional Mod Hard-Core GOTY (less points, bonuses, goods; adds gender bon-pen)]
-- Arwen_GOTY_Hard-Core.esp

.. and so on for the other optional mods and the compatibility patches.

This organization gives me more control and some basic information about the mods themselves (in the folder name) and their function/position toward other files (by numbering).

I am pretty sure, the experienced BAIN-users will have more than a bit to criticize about my specific organization (and if you see something vital that needs to be fixed, please do so) but the principle should be correct (at least, the mod installed correctly).

The point is, some downloaded mod-packages require close to no work, some a little, some a lot. I transferred more than 90 mods to BAIN-friendly packages and it took many hours. Of course, a lot of those mods were also NOT FOMM-friendly, so there was no way to avoid some work to install them properly later, regardless of the used installation-manager.

I also made a couple of packages that collect separate but interdependent mods (by different authors) into one package; this is not without downsides and I've read that some of the experienced BAIN-users prefer to make packages as simple and exclusive as possible, but for my way of thinking, it's better to "network" (inter-)dependent mods together into sub-packages as long as NOT more than one is a hot WIP (so, most of the Fallout mods are pretty safe in that respect).

In conclusion, it's not difficult but time-consuming to make your mods BAIN-ready (we have already talked about some noteworthy exceptions) – and yet ..

Is it worth it?

De-installation has never been more painless for me and the higher degree of control and information is quite valuable from the start.

The "conflicts"-tab, for example, tells you exactly what files are replaced in one mod by another. Some files of one of the NMC Texture Packs dealing with the Wasteland are in conflict with http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16703. In BAIN, I do not just see all conflicts immediately, I can also decide what mod wins by reordering them. This information might help to identify, why a mod does not work as expected and do something about it.

And there is another advantage: You get to know the mods much better when you first repackage them and then see what files they add to or change in your Fallout folders. That too should help to deal with problems or avoid them in the first place.

If you want to understand and control a modded Fallout better, I'd already recommend BAIN.

Your 'Is it worth it?' paragraph sums up nicely why I use BAIN. As far as time spent on making packages, I find the alternative to Explorer that I use (Total Commander - there are others just as good) makes things much quicker and easier. For a start, it treats archives like ordinary folders so you can browse/edit/pack/unpack without using an external program. If you hit the 'new folder' key while a file or folder is highlighted, that file's name becomes the new folder name - great for sub-packages. Lastly, it has a really powerful renaming tool so you can easily add numbering, prefixes etc. to a group of folders at one time. For me, a medium-complexity BAIN would only take a couple of minutes (due to good tools not any particular skill on my part I might add ).

That's a great tip - why didn't you read my mind and knew therefore that this would have been nice to have a couple of days ago? But seriously, I give Total Commander a try, thanks, and I have to admit a lot of time was spent to "play" with alternative packages and multi-complex ones.

For example, I usually don't care about Body Replacers but I made one package with the Dimonized Type 3 at its core that includes the recommended patches by other authors, alternative versions, added textures, armor replacers for the core and the alternatives and some basic clothing. Totally NOT necessary but worth the learning experience.

My old BAIN thread had a bunch of examples on how to do complex BAIN packages. The newer thread not so much.

Here is my (probably outdated by now) female body mod BAIN compilation:
Body Mods Female-BAIN
├[10 Exnem nvde]
├[11 Exnem Clothed]
├[12 DLC Exnem Armor Conversion]
├[15 Luchaire Type 5 Body]
├[16 Luchaire Type 5 Hair Black]
├[16 Luchaire Type 5 Hair Blonde]
├[16 Luchaire Type 5 Hair Red]
├[17 Luchaire Type 5 Armor Meshes]
├[18 Luchaire Type 5 DLC Armor Meshes]
├[20 Dimon TYPE3 BASE CALI body]
├[20 Dimon TYPE3 BASE HD body]
├[20 Dimon TYPE3 BERRY body]
├[20 Dimon TYPE3 BERRY HD body]
├[20 Dimon TYPE3 SLIM body]
├[21 Dimon 3 Textures 1 - Pubic Hair]
├[21 Dimon 3 Textures 1 - Shaved]
├[21 Dimon 3 Textures 1 - Tattoo]
├[22 Dimon 3 Textures 1 - Alternate Head]
├[22 Dimon 3 Textures 1 - Default Head]
├[25 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - Base]
├[26 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - HQ Normal Map]
├[27 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - No Trim]
├[27 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - No Trim Small]
├[27 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - Strip 1]
├[27 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - Strip 2]
├[27 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - Trim 1]
├[27 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - Trim 2]
├[27 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - Waxed]
├[28 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - Alternate Face]
├[28 Dimon 3 Textures 2 - Default Face]
├[29 Dimon 3 RAIDER PHOENIX BODY PAINT]
├[29 Dimon 3 RAIDER TRIBAL TATTOS]

What is total commander for again?

It's an old-school alternative to windows explorer. There are other, similar programs, it just happens to be the one I tried first and after 10 years or so I'd struggle without it. http://imgur.com/J8JUs a screenshot of it in action (inside a compressed BAIN package on the right). Looks old-fashioned but I'll take function over form anyday.

Total Commander seems to be a very handy tool indeed. I cleaned up a couple of mods on Saturday with FO3edit; BAIN, of course, showed the conflict between the packed file and the changed installed one and Total Commander allowed me to repackage the Installers with added cleaned up versions (and, of course, backups of the original files) easily. Nice.


For unrelated reasons, I am going to reinstall F3 and I am glad that all mods are ready to be added once more - without any further work than the installation itself (I've copied my adapted Installation-Order, so that I can add them in the perfect order in cases of conflict from the start). Yet another nice consequence of using BAIN.