I agree with you. Level scaling is the method chosen to balance the game. It worked too well! In fact, many people hate those systems because they feel so static. Personally, I could not play Oblivion. I tried numerous times and just got bored because I realized their was next to no unique encounters or loot to be found.

A better system is to design the balance in waves, spreading outward from the location characters start in. Hand place all of the balance, including enemies too powerful to defeat at the end of dungeons(for new chars), and ultimately the game will be better for it. Previous TES titles used scaling, and Bethesda truly did enhance scaling. However, the scaling should have been scrapped long ago, kind of similar to the scrapping of stats. It was bad design WAAAY back then, just like it is bad design now. It will turn off an intelligent player who can see the underlying structure of the gameplay. They will realize how the game unfolds within an hour or two and not want to play(like I did with Oblivion).

I totally agree. Balance is Over rated. However, don't be afraid to have next to impossible encounters with amazing rewards. This is something TES has NEVER done right.

Well this is what has happened ever since the Xbox 360came out , games have been about using psychology to make money (i.e. keep playing a game like WoW, or just buy all those generic FPS things), not about making fun games, good storylines, or interesting artwork, and so everything has been "balanced" or in otherwords made so easy that it won't turn anyone off to the game, except people who are not fooled by this whole thing and want to really play a game instead of feeling like they are sitting at a slot machine, waiting for that one trill which almost never comes

THIS IS PATHETIC 10000 YEARS OF TECHNOLOGY AND IT IS MAKING THINGS NOT FUN COME ONE PEOPLE

o and support MWPE

This !!! I agree with this 100%!!! If the life would be to fair it would svck to live. It's also why we gamble on Lotto games, for the chance to become rich. A great game SHOULD greatly reward players if they do something special (by luck, pure skill or both). I am so tired of these mini rewards most games (like WoW) give us today.

I agree in general with your post, but I'd say that scaling AND balance were broken. The scaling seems to have been a temporary issue that they're trying to fix. Poor balance is a tradition that will likely continue, though they do seem to be creeping forward.
Also keep in mind that for many of us Oblivion was much too easy. I always assumed that the scaling was done to provide hand-holding and ensure the game never got "too difficult". It never crossed my mind that anyone would think the game was hard until I started reading the forums.

Seriously?

Is there anything you can't blame on consoles?

I think the economy recession is also the fault of the 360! Those evil buggers!!

The original complaint wasn't that the NPCs can't climb rocks, which I agree is a problem (though, some NPCs like mountain lions and scallions have no trobule at all leaping onto rocks), it was that large rocks could be exploited to gain an advantage over enemies. But even in real life large rocks can be exploited in that way. If you manage to scale one before a persuer gets close enough to snatch you off of it, and it is high enough that the cannot simply grab your ankles or stab you from their standing position, and they are further weighted down by armour etc., if you have any form of progectile weapons, even heavy rocks, or a polearm etc. and certainly if you can emit lightning from your fingers, you do have a distinct advantage. In order to climb onto the rock with you, they have to both stop any attempt at attack AND put themselves at an extremely vulnerable position. You try climbing up an enormous boulder in an attempt to attack a person armed with a mace. Odds are they will crack your skull the second you start trying to pull yourself up.

@Resistanceknight.. I see where you're coming from, but scalling is another form of balance imo and to many.
It's just balancing out npc skills to the player, so as to proovide an even.. sic balanced playing field.

Where as what you describe as balance is to make sure that not one playstyle is stronger than another.
Which is sorry to say not a strong point in any game tbh, even Oblivion and TeS.
In Oblivion sneak attacks are stronger than any other form of attack, Illusion is stronger when using spell alters to make spells than any other school.
Sword and shield out weighs two handed, which in turn out weighs unarmed.
Skill progression makes certain choices impracticle as those that are of most use level slower, than those you use more often due to needing to spam them.
Destruction requires constant mana source and chaining, Illusion does not.

The bad thing is that as many scream at unbalanced effects, companies adjust too harshly.
Instead of compansating and making every skill, weapon.. etc useful they nerf the OP ones and raise difficulty to "balance".

If Skyrim has been "balanced" and leveled to the extent of DA:2's balance, expect a bland, grinding damage fest game.
One where being the strongest is the only way to play, and damage and dps is the one aim of a "balanced" character build.
One where options have been removed to make difficulty harder for some, but freedom to chose balanced and varied playstyles removed for that to happen.

Balance and leveling are shown to be major issues, those that complain about games being easy tend to move on quickly.
Those that like choice tend to replay again and again even years after no new work is being done on the game.

Ahhh Double post.. twice today, sorry for the error.

I have always wanted somebody to make a game that has a mode where there are simply thousands of enemies in one place and you just run around (overpowered) killing the crap out of them (:P)

Baldurs gate and BG:2 using the console to import you could do that.... pretty much broke the framerate though.
I'd try it in O or NV.. just G.E.C.K.. CS them in and set a specific level I:E 1 for them, it'll break the game no doubt.

there is no balance

the game is either hard or easy

I prefer hard

Every 'dangerous' area you level in should have high level mobs that patrol the area and smash you if you aren't careful.

[img]http://common.allakhazam.com/images/i/d/id323.png[/img]

I don't have a problem with a game being Balanced as I don't want to find the games strongest weapon or armor at level 1.

If leveling is 1-50, I want the hardest enemies to be beyond 50 so there is always challenge. Off course I don't have to mention no to level scaling. It wouldn't hurt some NPCs spawn with randomized but not scaled stats between believable ranges. A fixed number of unique NPCs being adventurers and progress besides us is also cool. It would be nice if their level is randomized every new game. We could have real rivals. Artifacts being circulated between bandits and adventurers and eventually coming to those fixed numbers of adventurers or us would also give the game amazing discovery feeling.

Battles being very very deadly is another thing I want to see. One shot kills must be common. It must be particularly hard to actually hit an enemy because of all the fencing and parrying. And not every combat should end with death but some mercy act instead. Turning back to an enemy must be punished immediately. Also being hit while jumping or running should knock the player over and it should end with a ground finishing move to punish such silly acts. I'm sure programmers can make it sure player would get hit every time when he/she tries to jump on a rock or stay stationary on a rock. Also throw-able weapons, mages are covered.

And off course it should work both ways for balance.

I played the Game "Lufia Rise of Sinestrals" a while ago, and i really loved the fact that you could obtain really powerfull items in the beginning, if you can defeat a Sinistral in the early stages of the game and could get Gades bracer and the Sword. But you really had to prepare for a fight like this leveling, get a lot of bombs and stuff like that to have atleast a chance. This was optional and the Items didnt break the game but some fights and leveling with them was easier a lot, and you could take them to the ancestral cave which was really something.

One of the best games for the gameboy and its still a game I could play 20 or 30 years after the release just because you have options like this, so yeah balance is overrated and I would love to see something like this in Skyrim. In Morrowind you could get a lot powerfullitems early if you know how, like randagulfs fist or glass armor a bit to easy which is not good I think. But for a RPG the best feeling it is if you really earned this item, I really hope dragons have a some nice treasures which you could obtain early but not very easy. And there are some encounters with other Npcs like Umbra which are really something and make it worth to fight them early to get some nice stuff to play with. :hubbahubba:

I agree if you legitimitely earn the item then you do deserve the item.

Sounds very...."balanced".

Demon Souls had beautiful balance. For those who don't know the game is is a PS3 exclusive but no 2 will also be on xbox. When at a low level the easy levels feel hard and the hard levels (you can move to areas as you see fit) are near impossible. The most powerful weapons have counters and the best armour have theor own issues (mainly weight). Going back to a lower level with upped stats and a good wepaon makes those initial battles like a cakewalk. There is progression and you can see the benefit of that progression. On every level there are hard enemies and quite easy enemies.

I think it is one of the great RGP's out there.

I'd like to second all of that about Demon's Souls. I think anyone making a video game that involves melee combat and character development should be required to play Demon's Souls first. It should be the new benchmark.

Yeah, in terms of difficulty and balance...TES games are huge jokes compared to Demon's Souls

Yes - the melee combat was particularly satisfying. Having a high level character being able to be taken out by a lowly footsoldier when playing carelessly but bening able to take out numerous low level enemies quickly when playing well was really satisfying. The difficulty of the game is hard but that is personal preference. This is a game Sony rejected to publish as they thought it too hard and is now on their platinum list becuase is sold so well ( by another publisher). SOny actually came aout and stated they wished they published the game and it was a mistake to let it past. And now the next game will not be a PS3 exclusive.

people complained in morrowind how Static powerful items were always in one place, and that they'd gun for the strongest items and then claim the game was too easy.

whos fault is that exactly?


So now that Radiant story moves' people...why can't it move items as well? so that now powerful items can be shuffled with each new game, and appear under different circumstances and we can still have powerful unique items while still keeping Dynamic placement and staunching the self defeating complaint about the game being to easy.

How difficult can a game truly be if you can save at any time outside of combat? It cant be. In Beth's latest amalgamation New Vegas (Yes, it was made by Obsidian but it follows Beth's blue print), how hard was it to run past higher leveled parts, particularly the northwestern ares towards NV? It was easy, it just took reloads, or luck.

That is a very positive thought but if random placement is what your looking for that can done with a leveled list. Radiant Story would be more in line for placing specific uniques in specific places based on your character build or your actions in quest lines or both precluding ALL uniques from appearing in a single game. Not sure how you'd feel about that.

Hmmm


but thats the thing I rather items not get nerfed because their max is level 40 and im only 21, I'd use your thought and run with it so that the item has a reasoning for being there instead of just randomly appearing like it could have in Oblivion. usually artifacts had a story behind them, a reason why there are in a location or in someones possession.

I was speculating that Radiant Story could take this leagues farther, removing the fears of overpower the game because I know where an Item is, and there being a reason why this item is on a particular person for each game.

its only lore correct no? I mean each artifact never really stayed in one place for long, so this was just a thought.

If not I hope you'd take up the lantern on that, I intend to mod in locations and spells.


(pretty much repeated what you just said :bonk:

I.E - yes that sounds excellent.