http://rampantgames.com/blog/?p=2702

I came across this interesting article (to me at least) just a few minutes ago and it actually finally hit me of what I've been missing in my rpg's of late, that the reward for exploring and actually playing in the game world has lost its appeal for me.

i would like to hear others opinions on this as well.

heres a quick glimpse for those that dont feel like reading the whole thing

"Balance is important. But too much balance makes things feel static, and — well, boring. Designers need to loosen up – balance is overrated. Let players run off the rails a little more. So what if they get the Sword of Disaster a few levels early, or manage to nuke the Vampire Lord in two rounds due to a clever combination of spells and a good chunk of luck? Those are the kinds of things stories are made of, not that carefully measured incremental advancement you’ve so painstakingly worked out on spreadsheets and flow charts."

this is the exact reason i cant play oblivion anymore without mods like OOO.

the reason I can't play Oblivion anymore without mods like OOO, MMM, Frans, FCOM, Duke Patricks, Real Hunger, Real Thirst, etc. is because IMO the game is not balanced enough without them. Also Enhanced Economy to correct some of the pricing problems that make it too easy to become ridiculously wealthy.

Personally, I enjoy the level of challenge in RPGs right about the point where you have to approach everything cautiously because nearly every battle means several deaths and reloads.

Oblivion-style level scaling =/= Balance

Here fuzzing here :foodndrink: :celebration:

break out the beating sticks once in a while, give incentive to WANT to get stronger, stop making the world revolve around the player Ala leveled enemies,spells,items.

If Im too weak to fight/access it, I'd like a sound beating to convey that, If I've put in all the hard work to level up, I'd like the feeling that I can triumped dozens of enemies to reflect that, a game leveling enemies with you to "challange" you is nothing more than survival mode.

if Im strong, Im strong, if Im weak, im weak.

let the player sort out all the details

If I never feel like I "outsmarted the game", then there's something wrong.

TES has always included ways to break the intended challenge curve. As long as they're optional and take some tinkering around to discover, all is as it should be.

I can make my own balance.

Agreed, both with you and the two posters below you. This is a really good thread, and the OP should post the article in full. It is a worthy read. Balance IS good,. Games need some balance, but TOO much balance does lead to a stale, less than thoroughly magical experience.

It is unrealistic for a weak character to seldom run into an enemy FAR more powerful than they. It is equally unrealistic for a player/character who has advanced to an extraordinary level of power and skill, to be knocked back into ordinary status because half of the enemies and NPCs in the game have somehow simultaneously all become superheroes and supervillains as well. It also diminishes one's sense of accomplishment and advancement, while making powerful enemies seem mundane and unexceptional by making them too common. And if there isn't at least a small chance of your average character running across a rare and powerful artifact or weapon, it defeats the purpose of checking chests and treasure hoards for any reason other than a routine restocking.

This was the best bit... http://iggychaos.blogspot.com/2011/04/here-have-sword-sandwich.html

If I am not mistaken, Todd, has mentioned the desire for a "peaks and valley" difficulty approach when dealing with enemies. Although this would only be responding to part of the balance issue. To be honest, if Skyrim is a much improved version of Fallout 3 in TES then I will be a happy camper.

Depends what we're talking about. I shouldn't have to avoid jumping on a rock, because npc's are to stupid to be able to handle that. An unballanced game is a boring game. Not the other way around. You shouldn't feel like your cheating when your'e using common sense. Should you be able to feel like a god? Sure, but it should be when you're an actual god, not a level two who learned how to jump on a rock.

Its not unballanced when you work your ass off to get that super special awesome sword early on. That's actually quite ballanced. Its unballanced when anyone and their grandma can stroll into that cave and pick up that super speical awesome weapon too.

Its still ballanced when a pc can find 100% chameleon. Its unballanced when the "genious mages" don't know how to use a simple life detect spell.

You shouldn't have to avoid something as badass as 100% chameleon. That should be something you work for, and if enemies had a way to try and combat people who were invisible then it would be. If it were ballanced, then it sure as hell would have been a lot more fun.

So in other words I pretty much completely disagree with everything said. Ballance should always be the most important thing. Oh ya, one more thing. Scaling has little to do with ballance. Oblivions scaling was an attempt to try and keep things challenging even towards the endgame. If ballance had been more important in Oblivion, we wouldn't have gotten that scaling system.

I think there is a differnece between game balance/non balanced vs exploits that make every encounter seem cheap. Near the end game I want to feel awesome, a near god. In oblivion goblins were still hard at the end game due to scaling. I should be able to swat it away if it decided to attack me and all its little friends should run away with fear.

That was a good read, thanks for posting.

EDIT: Just read "Here, Have a Sword Sandwich" and it was a good read too. I think there is something to be had about these two articles.

In the name of balance, breaking balance. That's ironic.

Consistency. Don't break it.

We aren't talking about exploits we're talking about all the hard work a player puts in their character and still having epic 1 on 1 battles with a Rat.

Or that an individual can beat the MQ Complete all the Guild quests and beat the game at level 2.

"Have a sword sandwich" was a delicious read.

"But I really doubt I'll ever write a blog entry about playing Borderlands. If I did it would be titled "I got the level I expected and then could use the gun I expected and can now do 10% more damage to the new enemies I'm fighting who have 10% more hitpoints".

That is so full of win and is exactly what Im always on about.
Games that are too constraining are boring.

I'm not sure about the whole balance part. But I agree that games need to do more to reward players who explore.
Some games that get it right:
Trine - exploring leads to more XP potions or special items, so there's a nice reward for taking the time to figure out how to reach a ledge or for exploring a side route
Dungeon Siege: Throne of Agony - far off chambers in dungeons have a special glyph that gives you some gold/XP to reward you for finding a "secret area." Additionally, a chest with loot is often in the vicinity.
Okami - treasure and special items are tucked in off-the-trail locations
Morrowind - hand placed items (including artifacts) in hard-to-reach or non-intuitive locations reward the adventurous explorer.

In Oblivion, I felt there was no incentive or reward for exploring, Just the same randomly generated leveled loot, no special quests, NPCs, items, etc. Exceptions: the giant mud crab and the giant slaughterfish - but they aren't exactly interesting/rewarding.

Like I said, that's scaling. Not ballance. Ballance means that there are no advantages that can be gained to easily or are so advantagous that the enemies can't hope to fight back. Scaling makes that rat super strong.



Well of course a level 2 can do such a thing. Anyone can gain the required amount of calipers at any time to win the game.

Diablo 2 follows the same mechanism as well and I got bored - very little you find makes you seem awesome. Your are just good enough to beat the characters on the level you are playing. This isn't a multiplayer game and does not have to be perfectly balanced.

Is scaling not a form of balancing?

^This

Essentially, "balance" is whatever the particular level of challenge is where the player most enjoys the game.

That means there must be multiple difficulty settings because different players enjoy different degrees of challenge. In general, however, if a game is way too easy, it is probably going to be boring and unbalanced for everyone.

Oblivion-style level scaling was extremely un-balanced. This is why the game is so much more fun with mods like OOO, MMM, Frans, Duke Patrick's etc. These mods improve the balance.

No, its a form of always trying ot keep the game challenging.

Ballance allows for you to wtfbbq own that level one rat. You worked for it, so you get it.

Scaling makes that rat your exact level. That's not ballanced, because all that work you put into your character isn't being reflected and rewarded. Its challenging, which was the goal of scaling, cause the rat puts up a fight. But is it ballanced? No.

It most definitely is.

Scaling is a form of oxymoron.

Balancing of games is not overrated, balancing of singleplayer games is tho. too much balance gets boring but too little gets even more boring than too much of it.

Scaling is a form of balance. What you are describing is BAD balance. But balance non the less.

Scaling is a game mechanic that can improve balance or reduce balance, depending on how it is executed.

By "Bad balance" I think you mean "A lack of balance"

The reason they use scaling is for the sake of "balance". That it svcked in Oblivion, doesnt take away from the fact, that balance was the intended affect.

edit: I should have said that I agree with your first sentence. Perhaps I shouldnt have said "bad balance", what I meant was "BALANCE GONE HORRIBLY WRONG!" lol

edit #2: Darn I should put more thought into my response before I hit submit... sigh. Anywho, I understand what you guys are saying. My only point here is that they TRIED to balance Oblivion, just as they are trying with Skyrim. That scaling was a pile of caca in oblivion, doesnt change the fact that scaling was their attempt to fix a perceived imbalance in Morrowind. Just as Fallout 3 scaling was a response to the perceived imbalance of Oblivion. I fully expect a tweeked update for Skyrim. With Fallout4/TES:VI making further changes based on problems with Skyrim. So on and so forth. But balance was the intent.