[katie TWAVA]

Um, when I enter the IC Market District I get a bunch of weird errors and this notice telling me to move "Better Imperial City.esp" lower down the list. However not even running BOSS would help. This is my current load order.

When you come across a note instructing you to move "Better Imperial City.esp" lower down the list, the intent is that you move "Better Imperial City.esp" lower down your list. Failure to comply will result in reading the note again and again and again.

[Phoenix Draven]

You have a lot of mods loading after the Bashed Patch (and after Better Imperial City), of which at least one (and probably more) clearly edits the Imperial City, so the problem will not go away until you do as adviced, and move those mods up above the Better Imperial City esp. Running BOSS will not help you with mods that are not recognized by BOSS.

Yes I know it does seem incredibly simple to do but, might that cause other mod conflicts? I just want to be sure before I move all the unsorted mods behind BC.

[Dawn Porter]

Yes I know it does seem incredibly simple to do but, might that cause other mod conflicts? I just want to be sure before I move all the unsorted mods behind BC.

It seems simple and it is. If BOSS doesn't place the Better Imperial City after those mod it is because it probably doesn't recognize these mods and as they are not known they are left in the end of the load order for you to place where they should go (and tell BOSS about it so they can update their list). There should be no mod after the Bashed Patch and the Better Imperial City and the patches related to it should be just at the end of your load order with only the mods you are 100% certain that are not affecting the IC with it. There is no conflict to fear but having the IC not working properly because it is not at its right place.

[Mark Churchman]

I just updated better cities to 4.6.1c and I used the UL compatibility patches that are packaged with it, but when I run BOSS it tells me "use 'Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.esp' instead" and it says this for each one of them but upon checking the nexus for UL patches they are identical. Is this a mistake in the BOSS masterlist or am I supposed to download different patches from somewhere else?

[Dj Matty P]

Posted on the right thread this time

I can’t play without Better Cities – it is a wonderful mod – many thanks for all the hard work you do.

I have been writing a little utility to make changing and manipulating BAIN projects a little easier. Since I always follow the convention that BAIN sub-packages (folders) that have the same number, means you should choose only one of the folders with the same number, I thought I would have a go at the BC BAIN project.

Here is the result (in case it is of interest to anyone)…

Spoiler

Better Cities v4.6.1c
000 Core
010 =================== Unified
010 Better Cities Full - Blood and Mud Edition
010 Better Cities Full
011 Better Imperial City
020 =================== Unified FPS Patches
020 Better Cities Full
020 Better Cities Full - Blood and Mud Edition
021 Better Imperial City
030 =================== Separate Cities
030 ANVIL
031 BRAVIL
031 BRAVIL - Blood and Mud
033 BRUMA
034 CHEYDINHAL
035 CHORROL
036 LEYAWIIN
037 SKINGRAD
040 =================== Separate Cities FPS Patches
040 Anvil
041 Bravil
041 Bravil - Blood and Mud
043 Bruma
044 Cheydinhal
045 Chorrol
046 Leyawiin
047 Skingrad
050 =================== Separate Imperial City Districts
050 Arboretum
051 Arcane University
052 Arena
053 Elven Gardens
054 Green Emperor Way
055 Market
056 Prison
057 Talos Plaza
058 Temple
059 Waterfront
060 =================== Separate Imperial City Districts FPS Patches
060 Arboretum
061 Arcane University
062 Elven Gardens
063 Market
064 Prison
065 Talos Plaza
066 Temple
067 Tunnel
068 Waterfront
100 =================== Options
100 Leyawiin Flood Removal
101 View When Distant IC [ON]
200 =================== Replacer Plugins
200 Against the Zealots of the Nine
201 Clocks of Cyrodiil
202 Mystery of the Dulan Cult
203 Scribe Supplies - Intensive
203 Scribe Supplies - Read summary
204 Slofs Goth Shop
205 Vaults Of Cyrodiil
300 =================== Patches
300 Brew House
301 Cobl
302 Dwemer Subway
303 Halcyon Island
304 Knightly Armory
305 Oblivion Collectible Cards
306 Old Crow Inn
307 Origin of the Mage's Guild
308 Ruined Tail's Tale
309 sixlivion
310 Tears of the Fiend
311 Thievery in the Imperial City
312 TIE
313 Trails Of Cyrodiil
314 Valley View Estate
315 Verona House Bloodlines
350 =================== Patches - Unique Landscapes
351 Bravil Barrowfields
351 Bravil Barrowfields - Blood and Mud
351 Bravil Barrowfields - Full Blood and Mud
351 Bravil Barrowfields - Full
352 Cheydinhal Falls
352 Cheydinhal Falls - Full Blood and Mud
352 Cheydinhal Falls - Full
353 Chorrol Hinterlands
354 Skingrad Outskirts
360 =================== Patches - CUO
360 Bravil
360 Bravil - Blood and Mud
360 Bravil - Full
360 Bravil - Full Blood and Mud
361 Chorrol
361 Chorrol - Full
361 Chorrol - Full Blood and Mud
362 Leyawiin
362 Leyawiin - Full
362 Leyawiin - Full Blood and Mud

[Mélida Brunet]

@Surazal: That is one of my rules too, but I keep breaking it with the Docs folder. Maybe I should just keep docs at the top level... I cannot decide.

[Tom]

@Surazal: That is one of my rules too, but I keep breaking it with the Docs folder. Maybe I should just keep docs at the top level... I cannot decide.

I don't use WB for docs - keep it in a separate folder on my system that contains folder names corresponding to my complex BAIN packages - BC has its own documentation folder - these folders also contain the original downloaded archives.

The utility has one feature that put me off doing the above for a while - it will take a folder containing multiple ESPs, generate folder names based on the ESP names, copy the ESPs and ensure they all have the same sub-package number - made the above pretty quick.

Just realised getting off topic - will stop - only wanted to praise BC and see if the authors had any views on the structure I posted.

[Ells]

quick question, something which has been bugging me for ages..in the waterfront market, where the herbalist is, was it intentional to have a tree trunk almost inside the tent? if anyone else has noticed the tree is right outside the herbalist tent, covering a part of the entance too, although it's still possible to get in/out of the tent without problems.

[roxxii lenaghan]

Posted on the right thread this time

I can’t play without Better Cities – it is a wonderful mod – many thanks for all the hard work you do.

I have been writing a little utility to make changing and manipulating BAIN projects a little easier. Since I always follow the convention that BAIN sub-packages (folders) that have the same number, means you should choose only one of the folders with the same number, I thought I would have a go at the BC BAIN project.

Here is the result (in case it is of interest to anyone)…

Spoiler

Better Cities v4.6.1c
000 Core
010 =================== Unified
010 Better Cities Full - Blood and Mud Edition
010 Better Cities Full
011 Better Imperial City
020 =================== Unified FPS Patches
020 Better Cities Full
020 Better Cities Full - Blood and Mud Edition
021 Better Imperial City
030 =================== Separate Cities
030 ANVIL
031 BRAVIL
031 BRAVIL - Blood and Mud
033 BRUMA
034 CHEYDINHAL
035 CHORROL
036 LEYAWIIN
037 SKINGRAD
040 =================== Separate Cities FPS Patches
040 Anvil
041 Bravil
041 Bravil - Blood and Mud
043 Bruma
044 Cheydinhal
045 Chorrol
046 Leyawiin
047 Skingrad
050 =================== Separate Imperial City Districts
050 Arboretum
051 Arcane University
052 Arena
053 Elven Gardens
054 Green Emperor Way
055 Market
056 Prison
057 Talos Plaza
058 Temple
059 Waterfront
060 =================== Separate Imperial City Districts FPS Patches
060 Arboretum
061 Arcane University
062 Elven Gardens
063 Market
064 Prison
065 Talos Plaza
066 Temple
067 Tunnel
068 Waterfront
100 =================== Options
100 Leyawiin Flood Removal
101 View When Distant IC [ON]
200 =================== Replacer Plugins
200 Against the Zealots of the Nine
201 Clocks of Cyrodiil
202 Mystery of the Dulan Cult
203 Scribe Supplies - Intensive
203 Scribe Supplies - Read summary
204 Slofs Goth Shop
205 Vaults Of Cyrodiil
300 =================== Patches
300 Brew House
301 Cobl
302 Dwemer Subway
303 Halcyon Island
304 Knightly Armory
305 Oblivion Collectible Cards
306 Old Crow Inn
307 Origin of the Mage's Guild
308 Ruined Tail's Tale
309 sixlivion
310 Tears of the Fiend
311 Thievery in the Imperial City
312 TIE
313 Trails Of Cyrodiil
314 Valley View Estate
315 Verona House Bloodlines
350 =================== Patches - Unique Landscapes
351 Bravil Barrowfields
351 Bravil Barrowfields - Blood and Mud
351 Bravil Barrowfields - Full Blood and Mud
351 Bravil Barrowfields - Full
352 Cheydinhal Falls
352 Cheydinhal Falls - Full Blood and Mud
352 Cheydinhal Falls - Full
353 Chorrol Hinterlands
354 Skingrad Outskirts
360 =================== Patches - CUO
360 Bravil
360 Bravil - Blood and Mud
360 Bravil - Full
360 Bravil - Full Blood and Mud
361 Chorrol
361 Chorrol - Full
361 Chorrol - Full Blood and Mud
362 Leyawiin
362 Leyawiin - Full
362 Leyawiin - Full Blood and Mud

The structure looks fine I guess. The problem with this is that I would have to rewrite all the script for OBMM and this creates more error than wanted... As you can guess I don"t use BAIN for my installation and this list is putting subfolders everywhere. While I understand how it is cleaner for BAIN users, it is also more confusing for manual install (not mentioning that people already find our install procedure too long and complicated, imagine what it would be if you had to add all the subfolders in it... and yes we have to because otherwise they say the readme is not precise enough...)

quick question, something which has been bugging me for ages..in the waterfront market, where the herbalist is, was it intentional to have a tree trunk almost inside the tent? if anyone else has noticed the tree is right outside the herbalist tent, covering a part of the entance too, although it's still possible to get in/out of the tent without problems.

Are you positive that this tree is from Better Cities? I don't remember it (maybe because it didn't strike me).

To make sure it is from Better Cities, open the console,
- click on the tent and see the 2 first numbers/letters. Then,
- click on the tree and compare its 2 first numbers/letters to the tent's ones.

- If they are the same, then it is Better Cities fault, if the tree have 00 as numbers, it is also our fault as we didn't move the tree which is a vanilla one.
- If it is not the same numbers/letters, then it is due to another mod placing the tree there. The solution then is to type "disable" (without the quote) while having the tree selected in your console. This will remove it from your game without needing any patch

[candice keenan]

The structure looks fine I guess. The problem with this is that I would have to rewrite all the script for OBMM and this creates more error than wanted... As you can guess I don"t use BAIN for my installation and this list is putting subfolders everywhere. While I understand how it is cleaner for BAIN users, it is also more confusing for manual install (not mentioning that people already find our install procedure too long and complicated, imagine what it would be if you had to add all the subfolders in it... and yes we have to because otherwise they say the readme is not precise enough...)


Are you positive that this tree is from Better Cities? I don't remember it (maybe because it didn't strike me).

To make sure it is from Better Cities, open the console,
- click on the tent and see the 2 first numbers/letters. Then,
- click on the tree and compare its 2 first numbers/letters to the tent's ones.

- If they are the same, then it is Better Cities fault, if the tree have 00 as numbers, it is also our fault as we didn't move the tree which is a vanilla one.
- If it is not the same numbers/letters, then it is due to another mod placing the tree there. The solution then is to type "disable" (without the quote) while having the tree selected in your console. This will remove it from your game without needing any patch

I prefer fewer packages, not to mention I am used to following the instructions in the Nexus description and the ReadMe as they have been for some time... Putting every plugin in a separate folder is overkill to me, but it definitely might reduce installation errors for BAIN users, no more so than reading the ReadMe would, however. Suruzal could create a BCF for the main BC archive, anyway. Along those lines, a BAIN Wizard would probably be the most helpful for users that need (or want) the extra guidance.

[Isabella X]

I prefer fewer packages, not to mention I am used to following the instructions in the Nexus description and the ReadMe as they have been for some time... Putting every plugin in a separate folder is overkill to me, but it definitely might reduce installation errors for BAIN users, no more so than reading the ReadMe would, however. Suruzal could create a BCF for the main BC archive, anyway. Along those lines, a BAIN Wizard would probably be the most helpful for users that need (or want) the extra guidance.

If I knew what a BCF is I would certainly agree with you

[Thomas LEON]

If I knew what a BCF is I would certainly agree with you

Since I am on my way to bed...

#1) http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/page__view__findpost__p__16323792

#2) http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/?page=bcfs_and_omod_info

#3) Bash ReadMe - Installers Tab

BAIN Wizards, fortunately, unlike BCFs are specific to top-level structure and not CRC data (if I am interpreting the ReadMe correctly.) Therefore, like an OMOD script, it would not necessarily need to be updated with every change made to a file. Just throw in a wizards.txt file at the top level of the packages, and if a user has BAIN Wizards enabled, they can have as "easy" a time as OMOD users with the installation, I suppose... I have not looked into wizards much, especially since BAIN's subpackages are all the installation help I need, but I can see them being very useful for large, complex mods or mods where having previews of the different options are much more meaningful than the subpackage names.

FYI: I can upload BCFs for any of the 1000 archives in my package list in a couple minutes (not including the time it would take to download the original archives) but most of those packages are simple packages and in no need of repackaging...


Edit: BCF = BAIN Conversion File

[neen]

I just updated better cities to 4.6.1c and I used the UL compatibility patches that are packaged with it, but when I run BOSS it tells me "use 'Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.esp' instead" and it says this for each one of them but upon checking the nexus for UL patches they are identical. Is this a mistake in the BOSS masterlist or am I supposed to download different patches from somewhere else?

Sounds like BOSS got the instruction slightly wrong. It's supposed to warn you that there is another identical patch with a different name, and not to use both at the same time.

EDIT
There hasn't been a new release of the BOSS masterlist since I requested a message be added to each patch warning of duplication, so I can't see what the warning is saying. You must be using an unreleased version of the masterlist.

[clelia vega]

Hello I recently DL'ed your mod and found everything to be super awesome! However, as of late I am getting this weird landscape bug and I dont know where it came from! I have seen both the IC Market and the Arboretum in all its (new) splendor but this is what I find now:

Spoiler

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-29-38-73.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-30-02-34.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-30-13-90.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-30-23-57.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-32-19-92.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-32-35-87.jpg[/IMG]

Im assuming its my load order... ?

My load order for Better Cities is as follows (and everything after):
Better Cities.esp
Jolardhome.esp
Mystery of the Dulan cult.esp
ClocksOfCyrodiil_BC_OBC_OC_OCLR_Vanilla.esp
VaultsOfCyrodiil.esp
BetterCitiesFull.esp
BetterCitiesFull FPS patch.esp (While Im here, can anyone explain what these FPS patches are?)
Better Imperial City.esp
Better Imperial Cities FPS patch.esp
Better Cities - VWD of the IC.esp

(after Better cities I have...)

IlluminationWithin.esp (I loaded after because I want to have all the better cities have lights, is this correct? Do you have a better suggest for window lighting mods?)
Deadlyreflex5- timed block
Deadly reflex5 combat moves
SM_deadlyreflex
Ace_Aleswell_expanded.esp (my mod, doesnt change anything in the IC)

Does this order look wrong? If so what should I change?
Also can somebody tell me if I should uncheck the VWD one at the bottom? I read the readme and it said to use TES4Editor or some such tool unless I like to fly over the city but I didnt. I dont fly over the city either. I believe I can see some of the new towers in the City from the outside but I wouldnt mind unchecking it if you would recommend it.
Again, would anyone be willing to explain these FPS patches?


@BananaSplit- I know the IC was not your doing but your work on the other cities is amazing! I cannot play without this mod now )

[Alberto Aguilera]

yikes that one picture of the gate is pretty bad.

[Haley Cooper]

Hello I recently DL'ed your mod and found everything to be super awesome! However, as of late I am getting this weird landscape bug and I dont know where it came from! I have seen both the IC Market and the Arboretum in all its (new) splendor but this is what I find now:

Spoiler

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-29-38-73.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-30-02-34.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-30-13-90.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-30-23-57.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-32-19-92.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii301/aceball69/Oblivion/Oblivion2010-08-2608-32-35-87.jpg[/IMG]

Im assuming its my load order... ?

My load order for Better Cities is as follows (and everything after):
Better Cities.esp
Jolardhome.esp
Mystery of the Dulan cult.esp
ClocksOfCyrodiil_BC_OBC_OC_OCLR_Vanilla.esp
VaultsOfCyrodiil.esp
BetterCitiesFull.esp
BetterCitiesFull FPS patch.esp (While Im here, can anyone explain what these FPS patches are?)
Better Imperial City.esp
Better Imperial Cities FPS patch.esp
Better Cities - VWD of the IC.esp

(after Better cities I have...)

IlluminationWithin.esp (I loaded after because I want to have all the better cities have lights, is this correct? Do you have a better suggest for window lighting mods?)
Deadlyreflex5- timed block
Deadly reflex5 combat moves
SM_deadlyreflex
Ace_Aleswell_expanded.esp (my mod, doesnt change anything in the IC)

Does this order look wrong? If so what should I change?
Also can somebody tell me if I should uncheck the VWD one at the bottom? I read the readme and it said to use TES4Editor or some such tool unless I like to fly over the city but I didnt. I dont fly over the city either. I believe I can see some of the new towers in the City from the outside but I wouldnt mind unchecking it if you would recommend it.
Again, would anyone be willing to explain these FPS patches?


@BananaSplit- I know the IC was not your doing but your work on the other cities is amazing! I cannot play without this mod now )

Next time...

Post Your Load Order - http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/?page=know_how_to#PostYourLoadOrder

Get rid of Illumination Within and install AWLS. Your load order is wrong, regardless, but AWLS is fully compatible with BC.

BOSS - http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/?page=boss <-- Download and run this.

FPS patches remove some of the added clutter from BC, which gives increased FPS.

[Elizabeth Lysons]

Sounds like BOSS got the instruction slightly wrong. It's supposed to warn you that there is another identical patch with a different name, and not to use both at the same time.

EDIT
There hasn't been a new release of the BOSS masterlist since I requested a message be added to each patch warning of duplication, so I can't see what the warning is saying. You must be using an unreleased version of the masterlist.

Warnings as per latest SVN of BOSS Masterlist:

BCBravilFULL-Barrowfields patch.esp  . Note:  Use 'Better Cities - Unique Landscape Barrowfields.esp' instead.BCChorrol-ChorrolHinterland fix.esp  . Note:  Obsolete. Use Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.esp instead.  . Bashed Patch tag suggestion:  {{BASH:C.Water}}BCChorrol-ChorrolHinterland patch.esp  . Bashed Patch tag suggestion:  {{BASH:C.Water}}  . Note:  Use 'Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.esp' instead.Better Cities - Tears of the Fiend.espBCCheydinhalFULL-CheydinhalFalls patch.esp  . Note:  Use 'Better Cities - Unique Landscape Cheydinhal Falls.esp' instead.BCSkingrad-SkingradOutskirts patch.esp  . Bashed Patch tag suggestion:  {{BASH:C.Water}}  . Note:  Use 'Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.esp' instead.

[Rachel Hall]

Hello I recently DL'ed your mod and found everything to be super awesome! However, as of late I am getting this weird landscape bug and I dont know where it came from! I have seen both the IC Market and the Arboretum in all its (new) splendor but this is what I find now:

Im assuming its my load order... ?

(after Better cities I have...)

IlluminationWithin.esp (I loaded after because I want to have all the better cities have lights, is this correct? Do you have a better suggest for window lighting mods?)
Deadlyreflex5- timed block
Deadly reflex5 combat moves
SM_deadlyreflex
Ace_Aleswell_expanded.esp (my mod, doesnt change anything in the IC)

Does this order look wrong? If so what should I change?
Also can somebody tell me if I should uncheck the VWD one at the bottom? I read the readme and it said to use TES4Editor or some such tool unless I like to fly over the city but I didnt. I dont fly over the city either. I believe I can see some of the new towers in the City from the outside but I wouldnt mind unchecking it if you would recommend it.
Again, would anyone be willing to explain these FPS patches?


@BananaSplit- I know the IC was not your doing but your work on the other cities is amazing! I cannot play without this mod now )

No point speaking to Bananasplit here, he hasn't been involved in Better Cities for years

As Tomlong said, scrap IWR and install AWLS instead. IWR is most likely the cause, but you should also move Ace_Aleswell_expanded.esp up above BC too. Unless you've used TES4Edit to check that the mod doesn't touch the IC, you cannot be certain that it doesn't - the Construction Set loves to sneakily add unknown edits into mods when the modder turns their back!

The VWD ESP adds all the buildings from within the IC walls to the Tamriel worldspace. This means that if you fly over the city, or find a position nearby which allows you to see over the walls, and for any really tall buildings, you can actually see these buildings when outside the city and fairly close. Running TES4LODGen will then take this one step further by making these buildings also visible when distant (VWD) so that you can see all the buildings within the IC even when standing outside Bruma. However this has a noticeable negative impact on FPS, so if your game starts to lag or stutter when looking towards the IC from afar, you don't want to be using this ESP.

The FPS patches remove things added by BC to the cities to help improve FPS for those suffering low FPS. Some work better than others, and all of them detract from the intended appearance of Better Cities, so should only be used if your FPS is too low when in the cities.

[roxxii lenaghan]

Next time...

Post Your Load Order - http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/?page=know_how_to#PostYourLoadOrder

Get rid of Illumination Within and install AWLS. Your load order is wrong, regardless, but AWLS is fully compatible with BC.

BOSS - http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/?page=boss <-- Download and run this.

FPS patches remove some of the added clutter from BC, which gives increased FPS.

Ok ya I just didnt think anything before Better Cities.esp would matter to you guys, its a really long list after all

Spoiler

Oblivion.esm
MathFunctions.esm
Kvatch Rebuilt.esm
Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm
Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm
Mart's Monster Mod.esm
HorseCombatMaster.esm
Better Cities Resources.esm
Compass-Disable_QuestMarkers.esp
DLCHorseArmor.esp
DLCOrrery.esp
DLCFrostcrag.esp
DLCThievesDen.esp
DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
DLCVileLair.esp
DLCBattlehornCastle.esp
DLCShiveringIsles.esp
phinix-waterfix.esp
oc_darker_nights.esp
Crowded Roads.esp
KT_CustomRaceFix.esp
ClocksOfCyrodiil.esp
Cliff_BetterLetters.esp
VaultsofCyrodiil.esp
Alluring Potion Bottles v2.esp
delivery_job.esp
RealSwords - Bosmer LO-NPC.esp
Andragorn_Weapons_Armors.esp
DropLitTorchOBSE.esp
Book Jackets Oblivion.esp
Ring of console.esp
MofMagecraft1.7.esp
AmbientTownSounds.esp
Symphony of Violence.esp
Atmospheric Oblivion.esp
MaleBodyReplacerV4.esp
_Ren_BeautyPack_full.esp
KDQ - Rural Line Additions.esp
300_Lore_Dialogue_Updated.esp
HGEC_special_armor_repl.esp
HealthFood-2050.esp
Addendum - Diabloblivion.esp
ZumbsLockpickingMod - OBSE.esp
Moonshadow Elves - Sc.esp
1em_Vilja.esp
1em_Vilja_as_Moonshadow_Elf_Stranger.esp
Enhanced Grabbing.esp
Kragenir's Death Quest.esp
Blood&Mud.esp
AFK_Weye.esp
Kvatch Rebuilt.esp
LordKain_Adash_World.esp
Francesco's level up mini mod - Slower skills x1.5.esp
Francesco's Optional Vendor Tweaks.esp
Francesco's Optional Leveled Quests.esp
Francesco's Optional Leveled Arena.esp
Francesco's Optional Files 2.esp
Francesco's 10 days respawn time - 1-20 day lenght rescale.esp
Mart's Monster Mod for Fran.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse WaterLife.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Slof Horses Complete.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse Imperial Armor.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Durability & Damage.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Gems & Gem Dust.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse Runeskulls Loot G&GD.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Zombies for Body Meshes.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Resized Races.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Fran's leveled quests.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - More Passive Wildlife.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Less Bone Loot.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Less Reavers.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Safer Roads.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Extra Wounding.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Friendlier Factions MMM+Fran.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Dungeons of MMM.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp
bgMagicEV.esp
bgMagicBonus.esp
bgMagicAlchemy.esp
bgMagicItemSigil.esp
bgMagicEVShader.esp
bgMagicShaderLifeDetect.esp
bgMagicEVPaperChase.esp
bgMagicPotionNumberSoulGemValue.esp
bgMagicEVAddEnVar.esp
bgMagicLightningbolt.esp
SupremeMagicka.esp
SM_SigilStone.esp
SM_EnchantStaff.esp
SM_UnlockSpells.esp
SM_Scrolls.esp
SM_ShiveringIsles.esp
SM_MMM.esp
bgMagicEV_Conjuration_for_Supreme_Magicka.esp
bgMagicEVStartspells.esp
Dark Dungeons.esp
Better Cities .esp
JolardHome.esp
The Mystery of the Dulan cult.esp
ClocksOfCyrodiil_BC_OBC_OC_OCLR_Vanilla.esp
VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp
Better Cities Full.esp
Better Cities Full FPS Patch.esp
Better Imperial City.esp
Better Imperial City FPS Patch.esp
Better Cities - VWD of the IC.esp
IlluminationWithin.esp
Deadly Reflex 5 - Timed block and 150% damage.esp
DeadlyReflex 5 - Combat Moves.esp
SM_DeadlyReflex.esp
Ace_Aleswell_Expanded.esp

I think the readme mentioned AWLS it so I will convert to that.

I have OBMM so I dont know if i need to get yet another sorting program... You said my load order is all wrong so I assume you know the correct way? Can you just tell me the correct order?

Thanks for the reply...

[xxLindsAffec]

@ aceball69: Use BOSS, Tomlong gave you the link.

Warnings as per latest SVN of BOSS Masterlist:

BCBravilFULL-Barrowfields patch.esp  . Note:  Use 'Better Cities - Unique Landscape Barrowfields.esp' instead.BCChorrol-ChorrolHinterland fix.esp  . Note:  Obsolete. Use Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.esp instead.  . Bashed Patch tag suggestion:  {{BASH:C.Water}}BCChorrol-ChorrolHinterland patch.esp  . Bashed Patch tag suggestion:  {{BASH:C.Water}}  . Note:  Use 'Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.esp' instead.Better Cities - Tears of the Fiend.espBCCheydinhalFULL-CheydinhalFalls patch.esp  . Note:  Use 'Better Cities - Unique Landscape Cheydinhal Falls.esp' instead.BCSkingrad-SkingradOutskirts patch.esp  . Bashed Patch tag suggestion:  {{BASH:C.Water}}  . Note:  Use 'Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.esp' instead.

This isn't what I originally requested in the BOSS thread, I've posted again on BOSS, hopefully it will be corrected.

[Juanita Hernandez]

I think the readme mentioned AWLS it so I will convert to that.

I have OBMM so I dont know if i need to get yet another sorting program... You said my load order is all wrong so I assume you know the correct way? Can you just tell me the correct order?

Thanks for the reply...

OBMM allows you to manage your load order, but it does not sort your load order itself. That plugin list is quite long, which is hard for an inexperienced user to effectively manage. Using BOSS would help tremendously. It is a simple, small, effective utility.

[Taylor Thompson]

No point speaking to Bananasplit here, he hasn't been involved in Better Cities for years

As Tomlong said, scrap IWR and install AWLS instead. IWR is most likely the cause, but you should also move Ace_Aleswell_expanded.esp up above BC too. Unless you've used TES4Edit to check that the mod doesn't touch the IC, you cannot be certain that it doesn't - the Construction Set loves to sneakily add unknown edits into mods when the modder turns their back!

The VWD ESP adds all the buildings from within the IC walls to the Tamriel worldspace. This means that if you fly over the city, or find a position nearby which allows you to see over the walls, and for any really tall buildings, you can actually see these buildings when outside the city and fairly close. Running TES4LODGen will then take this one step further by making these buildings also visible when distant (VWD) so that you can see all the buildings within the IC even when standing outside Bruma. However this has a noticeable negative impact on FPS, so if your game starts to lag or stutter when looking towards the IC from afar, you don't want to be using this ESP.

The FPS patches remove things added by BC to the cities to help improve FPS for those suffering low FPS. Some work better than others, and all of them detract from the intended appearance of Better Cities, so should only be used if your FPS is too low when in the cities.

Your reply was most helpful. I unchecked IlluminationWithin to test if that was the case and it was in fact the cause of my graphic errors. Thats strange how a window lighting mod can do such things when loaded in the wrong order *facepalm*

Well thank you for you help, I will keep this info in mind, for sure.

[Lily Evans]

Your reply was most helpful. I unchecked IlluminationWithin to test if that was the case and it was in fact the cause of my graphic errors. Thats strange how a window lighting mod can do such things when loaded in the wrong order *facepalm*

Well thank you for you help, I will keep this info in mind, for sure.

It modifies the city worldspace to implement some of its changes. One of the edits BC needs to overwrite is found in many, many mods because of the location of the record. If you looked at your plugin list in TES4View, you would see that the change occurs at a relatively high level, compared to most worldspace edits, which means it is pretty much an unavoidable conflict when you have mods that modify the same area as BC. Therefore, BC has to be one of the highest priority mods in your load order.


Edit: I guess I should mention that this is most relevant to Imperial City modifications.

[Chica Cheve]

.... The FPS patches remove things added by BC to the cities to help improve FPS for those suffering low FPS. Some work better than others, and all of them detract from the intended appearance of Better Cities, so should only be used if your FPS is too low when in the cities.

While this is probably true - the part about the FPS patches detracting from the intended appearance of BC - with the modlist posted by aceball69, I'd think the FPS patches were fairly critical.

@ aceball69: if you're using OMM to install BC, then trying it with the FPS patches and if you don't like it, just deactivate and reinstall. But even if I had a supercharged, state-of-the-art computer with a 1 gig graphcis card, I'd probably still run the patches since I like to keep my FPS as high as possible.

A different question: I noticed in Anvil that there are large rocks coming out of some of the houses and shops. Morvayn's Peacemakers, for example, has a large rock coming out of the west side of the building. I can post my load order or a picture, but the load order is meticulously sorted with BOSS and the BC .esps are at the bottom. All .esps are cleaned and the only thing following the BC .esps are, I believe, the Bashed Patch and Streamline.

Not a problem, everything works fine, but some of the rock placement looks like people were building houses on top of rocks ...

~ Dani ~

[Etta Hargrave]

I am in a screenshot-taking mood today so why not...

TES4View - BC Worldspace Edit - http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg24/Tomlong54210/Troubleshooting/TES4View_BC_00.png

Red - BC's edit happens at the top level. Most of the time the colors reflecting changes/conflicts at that level are not important. Being at the top level, that record is present in mods that make changes to any subrecords.

Black - Few mods even make changes at the next level.

Where I should've placed the black oval - The level just below "Sub Block" is the top record of a particular cell, which is where mods that change a cell's associated music or water height, etc. make changes. There are a number of mods that changes that data, but most load orders only contain a few of them.

Blue - This is the level at which most mod are concerned with making changes (and BC is no exception.) AI grid pathing and object placement is at this level, so...

To put this in perspective, at the level, unless a mod is patching another mod, often only one mod owns a change there. More than 10% of the mods in my 104-active-plugin list modify the record highlighted by the red oval. My LO does not contain any small new item mods that place random things in the IC, all of which would contain that record. I have yet to add most of my favorite quest mods, many of which touch the IC, as so on...lots of room to "break" BC. If it is very closed to the Bashed Patch, and you do not leave the plugins that BOSS does not recognize hanging at the end randomly, BC will at least look as intended.

My LO:

Spoiler

Active Mod Files:00  Oblivion.esm01  underdark.esm02  All Natural Base.esm  [Version 0.9.9.5]03  Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm  [Version 4.5b]04  Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm  [Version 4.5b]05  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.72]06  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm  [Version 1.34]07  Mart's Monster Mod.esm  [Version 3.7b3p3]08  CyrodiilUpgradeResourcePack.esm09  TamrielTravellers.esm  [Version 1.39c]0A  FCOM_Convergence.esm  [Version 0.9.9MB3]0B  Better Cities Resources.esm0C  CURP_Controller.esm0D  Progress.esm  [Version 2.2]0E  TRoN.esp**  TNR ALL RACES FINAL.esp**  TNR - ShiveringIsles.esp0F  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.2.10]10  DLCShiveringIsles.esp11  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.4.0]12  SM Plugin Refurbish - SI.esp  [Version 1.30]13  Better Cities .esp14  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp15  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp++  FCOM_Francescos.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp  [Version 0.9.9]16  FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp  [Version 0.9.9]17  All Natural - Real Lights.esp  [Version 0.9.9.5]18  All Natural.esp  [Version 0.9.9.5]19  All Natural - SI.esp  [Version 0.9.9.5]1A  Enhanced Water v2.0 HD.esp++  Enhanced Water v2.0 HD - SI Addon.esp  [Version 0.1]1B  MIS.esp1C  Distant Chapel Bells.esp1D  Cities Alive At Night.esp1E  WindowLightingSystem.esp1F  ClocksOfCyrodiil_BC_OBC_OC_OCLR_Vanilla.esp20  ImprovedSigns.esp++  Regrowing Nirnroot - Dissappear Reappear.esp  [Version 1.01]21  Willful Resistance.esp  [Version 4.0]22  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 4.2.2]23  Populated Prisons.esp24  sr_super_hotkeys.esp  [Version 0.54]++  MaleBodyReplacerV4.esp++  RustyItems.esp++  RTFemaleReplacerV12.esp**  mz_Shields_SI.esp25  KDCircletsOOOOptimized - NPC Equip.esp  [Version 1.2]++  FCOM_KDCircletsOOOOptimizedNPCEquip.esp  [Version 0.9.9]26  Slof's Oblivion Robe Trader.esp27  Cobl Glue.esp  [Version 1.72]28  Cobl Si.esp  [Version 1.63]29  Oblivion WarCry EV.esp  [Version 1.09]2A  FCOM_WarCry.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB5]2B  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp  [Version 1.34]**  OMOBS.esp  [Version 1.0]**  OMOBS_SI.esp  [Version 1.0]2C  OOO 1.32-Cobl.esp  [Version 1.72]2D  Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]2E  FCOM_Convergence.esp  [Version 0.9.9Mb3]++  FCOM_EntropicOrderRebalance.esp  [Version 0.9.9beta2]2F  FCOM_RealSwords.esp  [Version 0.9.9]30  FCOM_DurabilityAndDamage.esp  [Version 0.9.9]31  Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life No Gates.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]++  FCOM_SaferRoads.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  Mart's Monster Mod - No Bone Loot.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]32  Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]33  Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse WaterLife.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3f]++  Mart's Monster Mod - Slof Horses Complete.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]++  Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse Runeskulls Loot OOO.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]++  TamrielTravellerAdvscript.esp  [Version 1.40Alpha]34  TamrielTravellers4OOO.esp  [Version 1.39c]++  TamrielTravellersItemsNPC.esp  [Version 1.39c]35  TamrielTravellersItemsCobl.esp  [Version 1.39c]36  ShiveringIsleTravellers.esp  [Version 1.39c]**  TamrielTravellersHorseTextures.esp  [Version 2]++  FCOM_TamrielTravelers.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_HungersUnitySI.esp  [Version 0.9.9]**  FCOM_Archery.esp  [Version 1.0]++  FCOM_ArcheryRealSwords.esp  [Version 2]++  Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]++  PersuasionOverhaul_OOO.esp  [Version 1.2]++  PersuasionOverhaul_MMM.esp  [Version 1.2]++  MMM-Cobl.esp  [Version 1.69]37  Kvatch Reclaimed.esp38  Slof's Oblivion Goth Shop.esp39  BetterInns + NewHomeOwners.esp  [Version 1.2]3A  TheElderCouncil.esp3B  TEC_4ERA_Dialog_Filter.esp3C  VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp3D  Mighty Umbra.esp3E  Blood&Mud.esp3F  Blood&Mud - EE patch.esp  [Version 4.2]40  Origin of the Mages Guild.esp  [Version 6.5]++  FCOM_MightyUmbra.esp  [Version 0.9.9]41  FCOM_Blood&Mud.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_SlofsRobeTrader.esp  [Version 0.9.9]42  FCOM_OMG.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_OMGSRT.esp  [Version 0.9.9]43  PersonalPackGuars.esp  [Version 0.56]44  FightersGuildContracts.esp45  Better Cities - House price patch.esp  [Version 1.0]46  Harvest [Flora].esp  [Version 3.0.1]++  Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp  [Version 3.0.0]47  Cliff_BetterLetters.esp  [Version 1.1]48  PersuasionOverhaul.esp  [Version 1.43]++  Enhanced Vegetation [100%].esp49  Toggleable Quantity Prompt.esp  [Version 3.1.1]4A  Enhanced Economy - House prices.esp  [Version 1.0]4B  SM Encumbrance and Fatigue.esp  [Version 2.6]4C  RealSleepExtended.esp  [Version 2.4.2]4D  SM Rest.esp4E  RefScope.esp  [Version 2.0.2]4F  EnchantmentRestore.esp++  EnchantmentRestore_Wells.esp50  Enhanced Grabbing.esp  [Version 0.5]51  SM Hand Combat.esp  [Version 1.0]52  nGCD.esp53  nGCD Oghma Infinium.esp++  nGCD Skeleton Key.esp54  ProgressGSD.esp  [Version 2.0]55  ProgressMBSP.esp  [Version 2.0]56  ProgressRBSP.esp  [Version 1.0]57  ProgressRacial.esp58  ProgressArmorer.esp  [Version 1.0]59  Legendary Abilities-Shield MOJ.esp  [Version 2.0]5A  Grandmaster of Alchemy.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - Cyrodiil + SI.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - OOO.esp5B  Atmospheric Loading Screens - No Text.esp++  Mart's Monster Mod - Resized Races.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]5C  1em_Vilja.esp  [Version 2.2]5D  bgBalancingEVCore.esp  [Version 10.52EV-D]++  bgBalancingEVCore - Limr'l.esp++  TamrielTravellers Cosmetics Cobl or RBP.esp5E  bgMagicEV.esp  [Version 1.7EV]++  bgMagicSpellTomes_for_WryeBash.esp  [Version 1.68EV]5F  bgMagicEVPaperChase.esp  [Version 1.68EV]60  SupremeMagicka.esp  [Version 0.90]61  SM_ShiveringIsles.esp  [Version 0.86]++  SM_OOO.esp  [Version 0.89]++  SM_MMM.esp  [Version 0.89]++  SM_COBL.esp  [Version 0.86]++  SM_NoSpellLights.esp  [Version 0.70]++  SM_Scrolls.esp  [Version 0.84]++  SM_SigilStone.esp  [Version 0.83]62  Better Cities Full - B&M Edition.esp63  Better Imperial City.esp**  [GFX]_Initial_Glow-all.esp++  Real Lava 1.3.esp++  Visually Enchanted Fire.esp++  Visually Enchanted Frost.esp++  Visually Enchanted Shock.esp**  Enhanced Economy - Soulgems.esp  [Version 4.2.2]64  UnderdarkSaga.esp++  Faces - Companions.esp**  All Natural - Indoor Weather Filter For Mods.esp  [Version 0.9.9.5]65  Bashed Patch, 0.esp66  FormID Finder4.esp67  Streamline 3.1.esp

Edit: I will put this on the compatibility page on TESIV:POSItive. I would have to add more explanations to make it useful on the TES4View page...