[Angela Woods]

That is most strange, I don't recall making any changes to the ESM that might require a clean save before updating, and so far nobody else has reported having to do this.

Yeah. I don't know. That's what I had to do though.

[Dorian Cozens]

@2Cold Scorpio-RGc1; the waterfront has had a dramatic increase in the amount of clutter since 18 months ago, which would account for the amount of extra strain on you're engine. I'm presuming that you are using Qarls as well, judging by your VRAM usage compared to mine, which doesn't combine well with Oblivion's shoddily poorly optimized engine regardless of how powerful a system you might have.

[Lizzie]

Yeah, I need to be very careful around the waterfront myself, too, as it's very easy for me to get a crash-on-load or various other weirdness (I noticed today that exiting from Dzonot Cave was causing the sky texture to fail to load occasionally). The combination of BBC Waterfront+UL-II+RAEVWD+LTPD... it seems that the engine is simply incapable of handling all that. Performance is fine... until the game crashes at random a few minutes later.

Perhaps if we bug Vorians enough for a BBC Waterfront Lite edition (not like the FPS patch, which removes meaningless items, rather nonessential NPCS and buildings are removed to further lighten the load on the game)? Most certainly won't happen, though. In the meantime, I'll just deal, perhaps figure in if some mods need to go into triage if it gets bad enough, but right now it's manageable.

[Paul Rice]

Perhaps if we bug Vorians enough for a BBC Waterfront Lite edition (not like the FPS patch, which removes meaningless items, rather nonessential NPCS and buildings are removed to further lighten the load on the game)? Most certainly won't happen, though. In the meantime, I'll just deal, perhaps figure in if some mods need to go into triage if it gets bad enough, but right now it's manageable.

Bad idea, when people start bugging me, I get annoyed and tell them to go away and stop using the mod The FPS patch for the Waterfront is "Waterfront Lite Edition". Anyone who wants to remove more for their own game may do so, whether by editing the ESP or by using the console to disable NPCs and buildings.
I'm all for suggestions and requests (which will be considered but usually don't make it into the mod), but if it gets more than that, I'm simply going to ignore the person entirely, regardless of what else they might say unrelated to whatever they've previously bugged me about.

[Veronica Flores]

I know it's a bad idea, that's why I'm not bugging you and said it would never happen. :whistling:

I already appreciate the work you put into BBC quite enough to understand that. Besides, I'm pretty certain that whatever was happening was being caused by AI overload, so I'm going to try further reducing the spawn rates in MMM to see if that helps. I know how to take care of my own game. :turned:

Even then, I can handle the Waterfront just fine so long as I restart the game when I enter and exit.

[trisha punch]

What I will do though is take a look at the NPCs from the Waterfront who wander around, and I will consider changing some AI packages to restrict some NPCs to interiors. There's also three NPCs who wander close to specific ships, and I believe the FPS patch removes those ships but leaves the NPCs. I may possibly have the FPS patch change their AI so that they go to an interior and stay there.

[Dan Scott]

Well, I've just done around of the Waterfront to find nonessential NPCs and proceeded to shut off their AI and disable them, so that should help, as well. I think I removed about 7 or 8 NPCs from the game by doing that, as well as the stray dog and a couple sheep.

No one remotely important, though, only the people who served no purpose. Right now, I admit the only thing keeping me from removing the BBC Waterfront entirely is that the damned Gold Horse Courier headquarters are located there and I don't want to break the associated quests. :flamed:

Oh well, if it comes down to it, then that's how it'll have to be, I suppose (sometimes I really hate this engine). I presume it is safe to merge the modular BCIC components in Gecko so that I can create my own merged Imperial City plugin that excludes the Waterfront?

[Ezekiel Macallister]

Is BC compatiable with WAC? I noticed some of the things changed in some of the WAC esps had to do with landscape or buildings.

[Laura Ellaby]

Is BC compatiable with WAC? I noticed some of the things changed in some of the WAC esps had to do with landscape or buildings.

Is BC Compatible with...?
Well we have this question a lot as you can guess.

There is no easy answer because:
1-We do not check every mod made
2-We can't check every mod made
3-We don't have the time nor the envy to test every mod made.

So how would you know if it is compatible with X or Y?
1-Some Common Sense: We alter each city and each district of the Imperial City. Depending on the state of the alteration which is heavy everywhere but in some districts of the IC, you can guess that if a mod alters the same place there could be some conflict. But this is only the first step. Guessing there might be some conflict doesn't mean there will be. Some mods blend seamlessly into BC like if they were part of it. So you have to go on step 2 here:
2-By testing it yourself because we can't do it and then report it here so we can try to put a patch for it if necessary. Some mod just conflict because a crate is somewhat buried or some items are hidden under a rock. These are minor conflicts that we generally ignore because a simple console disable or a TCL can let you access the items you need. Now we do relocate buildings/entrances when needed through patches or replacers. So test it an report!

Oh well, if it comes down to it, then that's how it'll have to be, I suppose (sometimes I really hate this engine). I presume it is safe to merge the modular BCIC components in Gecko so that I can create my own merged Imperial City plugin that excludes the Waterfront?

Yes, this is how we do it Merge the single files each time we do a release. And with the range of ID we set for each esp it is very safe and easy to do it yourself.

[Amysaurusrex]

Well, I've just done around of the Waterfront to find nonessential NPCs and proceeded to shut off their AI and disable them, so that should help, as well. I think I removed about 7 or 8 NPCs from the game by doing that, as well as the stray dog and a couple sheep.

No one remotely important, though, only the people who served no purpose. Right now, I admit the only thing keeping me from removing the BBC Waterfront entirely is that the damned Gold Horse Courier headquarters are located there and I don't want to break the associated quests. :flamed:

Oh well, if it comes down to it, then that's how it'll have to be, I suppose (sometimes I really hate this engine). I presume it is safe to merge the modular BCIC components in Gecko so that I can create my own merged Imperial City plugin that excludes the Waterfront?

The reason I don't remove NPCs with the FPS patches is that someday those no-purpose NPCs might have a purpose. They may be used in some BC quest, and if I disable them with an FPS patch and then forget I've done it, those NPCs won't be available to FPS Patch-users. This is why I will consider redirecting some NPCs to interiors instead of the exterior, as this way they will at least still be available, just somewhere else.

Presumably your removal of 7 or 8 NPCs and some animals helped your FPS?

[le GraiN]

Is BC Compatible with...?
Well we have this question a lot as you can guess.

There is no easy answer because:
1-We do not check every mod made
2-We can't check every mod made
3-We don't have the time nor the envy to test every mod made.

So how would you know if it is compatible with X or Y?
1-Some Common Sense: We alter each city and each district of the Imperial City. Depending on the state of the alteration which is heavy everywhere but in some districts of the IC, you can guess that if a mod alters the same place there could be some conflict. But this is only the first step. Guessing there might be some conflict doesn't mean there will be. Some mods blend seamlessly into BC like if they were part of it. So you have to go on step 2 here:
2-By testing it yourself because we can't do it and then report it here so we can try to put a patch for it if necessary. Some mod just conflict because a crate is somewhat buried or some items are hidden under a rock. These are minor conflicts that we generally ignore because a simple console disable or a TCL can let you access the items you need. Now we do relocate buildings/entrances when needed through patches or replacers. So test it an report!


Yes, this is how we do it Merge the single files each time we do a release. And with the range of ID we set for each esp it is very safe and easy to do it yourself.

Hmm, thanks for the response. I didn't know if that was something you guys were already aware of or working on since WAC is fairly popular.

[JeSsy ArEllano]

Hmm, thanks for the response. I didn't know if that was something you guys were already aware of or working on since WAC is fairly popular.

Well as long no one says there is an issue, there is no reason to believe there is. This is how we work. If WAC is popular, then someone must be using it along with BC and as this someone found no issue to report, all should be good

[Sarah Knight]

And I didn't even know WAC had been released!

[Peter lopez]

WAC moved from alpha to beta at the beginning of this year. Still not a full release though.

Vac

[Kim Kay]

Does Better Cities do anything with Glarthir? I ask because I think I remember a while back a discussion about him here. If you do, then...

Glarthir is refusing to discuss his quest with me at all. As in, I arrive at the chapel and talk to him, but he still thinks it's daytime and won't discuss anything with me, only rudely brush me off telling me to meet him where I'm currently standing. This persists even if I force the quest forward via the console. As a result, I've forced the quest completed under the impression I did not wish to get involved in Glarthir's scheme, but that doesn't change the fact that his dialogue is screwed up.

Spoiler

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[Dark Mogul]

Does Better Cities do anything with Glarthir? I ask because I think I remember a while back a discussion about him here. If you do, then...

Glarthir is refusing to discuss his quest with me at all. As in, I arrive at the chapel and talk to him, but he still thinks it's daytime and won't discuss anything with me, only rudely brush me off telling me to meet him where I'm currently standing. This persists even if I force the quest forward via the console. As a result, I've forced the quest completed under the impression I did not wish to get involved in Glarthir's scheme, but that doesn't change the fact that his dialogue is screwed up.

Yes, BC edits Glarthir's dialogue. This was discussed in the Nexus BC Comments thread last month, the problem is caused by BC, but not by any mistake by ourselves. It's a strange game engine glitch - BC has edited two or three of Glarthir's dialogue topics so that if OBC has been toggled on, he'll go to the Tamriel worldspace and will still talk to you. The glitch is that the game engine is not seeing the previous dialogue topics for Glarthir, so it's skipping them, and the ones we have edited rely on those previous ones. The game is jumping straight to the dialogue topics which follow from the ones we edited. This has been resolved for our next release, as I have added the topics we do NOT need to edit into the ESP, so that the game sees and uses them correctly. A rare moment where records "identical to master" must not be cleaned out of an ESP (so I've actually edited them to make them not appear identical to TES4Edit).

[Susan]

First off I'd like to say this is an excellent mod. Along with other aesthetic oriented mods I'm using, it certainly makes Cyrodiil look like a much more immersive place.

I've noticed one issue with the IC rendition. While walking along the upper crosswalk in Talos Plaza and looking towards the palace, there seems to be a visual issue:

http://i56.tinypic.com/6todxv.jpg

The door seems to be missing. I'm guessing this is how the game was originally since you are not meant to see this part of the tower when you were just confined to the streets and looking up at it. I don't have any other mod affecting the IC in anyway.

[Cash n Class]

A suggestion to include a new mod (that adds a Chorrol sewer system) in Better Cities: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37272.

Seems Vorians already knows about this mod. Is it up to the BC standards?

[M!KkI]

OK, good news bad news time. Good news is I think I've figured out where my instability problems were coming from. I believe it was from the game exceeding my vRAM budget (512Mb). Once the game topped over that sum, bye bye Oblivion.

Bad news is that means I'm going to need to triage my LO to get that figure back down. The most resource intensive mods that I am running right now would likely be BBC and UL Comp, so unfortunately that means that Better Cities is no longer in my load order. I'm going to need to stick it out with vanilla cities until I can get a new graphics card with more vRAM (preferably with 1Gb vRAM).

Sorry you lost a customer. I didn't want to go, but I have hardware limitations to keep in mind here.

[Chantelle Walker]

@Thomas; I do feel some irony in hearing you say that. My graphics card is far weaker than yours yet I can get away with BBC because it has 1gb VRAM. Pity it just can't do that and render the game fast at the same time.

[Krista Belle Davis]

First off I'd like to say this is an excellent mod. Along with other aesthetic oriented mods I'm using, it certainly makes Cyrodiil look like a much more immersive place.

I've noticed one issue with the IC rendition. While walking along the upper crosswalk in Talos Plaza and looking towards the palace, there seems to be a visual issue:

http://i56.tinypic.com/6todxv.jpg

The door seems to be missing. I'm guessing this is how the game was originally since you are not meant to see this part of the tower when you were just confined to the streets and looking up at it. I don't have any other mod affecting the IC in anyway.

No, BC adds that structural part of the White Gold Tower (based on a mod by Fearabbit); without BC the tower would not be quite so tall, and that doorway would not exist. BC does not actually include a door in that doorway, as so far there is no way to get up there and I didn't consider that it might be possible to see the doorway from anywhere! I'll add a door, but there's a chance that it might be too far away for the game to render it, especially if you have view distance for objects at less than max.

A suggestion to include a new mod (that adds a Chorrol sewer system) in Better Cities: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37272.

Seems Vorians already knows about this mod. Is it up to the BC standards?

No idea, I didn't download the mod yet, just looked at the nice pictures and responded to the person complaining that they were too dark (it's a dungeon mod! it should be dark). Unless the mod conflicts with BC, there's really no need to even think about it becoming part of BC. Also, BC Chorrol already has an underground area (incomplete).

OK, good news bad news time. Good news is I think I've figured out where my instability problems were coming from. I believe it was from the game exceeding my vRAM budget (512Mb). Once the game topped over that sum, bye bye Oblivion.

Bad news is that means I'm going to need to triage my LO to get that figure back down. The most resource intensive mods that I am running right now would likely be BBC and UL Comp, so unfortunately that means that Better Cities is no longer in my load order. I'm going to need to stick it out with vanilla cities until I can get a new graphics card with more vRAM (preferably with 1Gb vRAM).

Sorry you lost a customer. I didn't want to go, but I have hardware limitations to keep in mind here.

Well I'm afraid we don't offer refunds

[Robert Jr]

Waterfront has NPCs and a lot of animals going arround. Perhaps it is a good idea to use quiet feet mod or Wrye Bash option to disable sounds; maybe the waterfront area becomes better.

Yes, BC edits Glarthir's dialogue. This was discussed in the Nexus BC Comments thread last month, the problem is caused by BC, but not by any mistake by ourselves. It's a strange game engine glitch - BC has edited two or three of Glarthir's dialogue topics so that if OBC has been toggled on, he'll go to the Tamriel worldspace and will still talk to you. The glitch is that the game engine is not seeing the previous dialogue topics for Glarthir, so it's skipping them, and the ones we have edited rely on those previous ones. The game is jumping straight to the dialogue topics which follow from the ones we edited. This has been resolved for our next release, as I have added the topics we do NOT need to edit into the ESP, so that the game sees and uses them correctly. A rare moment where records "identical to master" must not be cleaned out of an ESP (so I've actually edited them to make them not appear identical to TES4Edit).

I used to keep a hand made patch with the dialogues merged in. Every mod makes dialogue override. Even if there is no new dialogue in the last plugin, and you use a plugin before with a new dia, they are not filtered through the end. Its as if the whole dialogue section was obeying that rule of one. Wrye Bash also does not have the option to merge it. It could become handy to have dialogues merged into bashed patch.

[Marina Leigh]

Waterfront has NPCs and a lot of animals going arround. Perhaps it is a good idea to use quiet feet mod or Wrye Bash option to disable sounds; maybe the waterfront area becomes better.

I have a dedicated sound card. I'm quite certain that footfalls were not the cause of this, since sound is not being routed through my CPU any more.

[Roddy]

Don't be so sure about it. I have 4 core cpu with hyperthreading (windows sees 8 cores) and an Asus Xonar. I still have to use some kind of quiet feet version. It all boils down to how the devs designed Oblivion. I have to agree - wish it could be so simple as a matter of hardware, too.

[Robyn Lena]

Don't be so sure about it. I have 4 core cpu with hyperthreading (windows sees 8 cores) and an Asus Xonar. I still have to use some kind of quiet feet version. It all boils down to how the devs designed Oblivion. I have to agree - wish it could be so simple as a matter of hardware, too.

A dedicated sound card (as long as Windows isn't ignoring it, which Win Vista and 7 will do unless the sound drivers capture and redirect the sound-processing back to their card, as Alchemy does for Creative cards) means that the sound is being processed by the sound card only, instead of by the CPU. Thus the number of cores on your CPU is not relevant when using a dedicated sound card. Oblivion will only ever use one core of a CPU regardless of how many you have, and Oblivion does not really make use of Hyperthreading even though the INI contains references to threading - the coding doesn't work.