Yeah, living without any boots is totally fun.

Boots of Blinding Speed... who needs it anyway...

But it was unique to beast and I liked that. Could it have been better ... sure. Heck the human walk animation could have been better. But it was a beast walk which IMO should be different than human walk.

And I liked the beast limitations. Why shouldn't some races be more challenging than others to play.

Yes to both

The reptilian dinosaurs (Stegosaurus, Triceritops, Brachiasaurus, etc) were Plantigrade.

The digitigrade Dinosaurs (T-Rex, Velociraptor, etc.) were birds (Or, as much a bird as an Emu or Ostritch is), so your statement is false.

And there's no reason the beast races can't wear other outfits... It's all the same structure, even if a Khajiit's foot is longer from heel to toe.

...

Really?

Do I really need to point out that most reptiles and amphibians are plantigrade and that the animals argonians represent are primarily plantigrade?

Because of that overrated thing, balance.

Choosing races or classes shouldn't be the same as choosing difficulty. If some people are just generally fond of certain races, they shouldn't be disappointed how that race is supposed to be the "weak race for people looking for challenge".
If they've got a some sort of weakness, they should have an equal strength too. Now I don't know how you could balance out the loss of two armor slots, but bonus on hand-to-hand is not enough...

Point, dinosaurs is the only example of real world two legged reptiles. Think a raptor with real arms and walk more upright.
No real world examples of two legged cats, making Argonians more realistic than Khajiit.. However I guess the legs would be straighter than in Morrowind
http://www.sahaaran.com/AnatCol2.gif and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy8c-YYdB4g

Yes to both.
If dogs can wear shoes (http://www.youractivepet.com/Site/images/Dog_boots.jpg http://www.vitamine-hond.com/images-dog-supplies-active-dog-gear/ruffwear-active-gear-barknboots-dog-boots.jpg) khajiit and argonians should be able to as well.

Morrowind - 2 reasons.

1: Makes the races feel more special.

2: Beats down on those lame lizards.

Agreed. Especially in a game where smithing is confirmed.

But does it really feel right? The beast in OB were just not beast. They were humans with tails and funky heads. They didn't seem special at all for their obvious differences. And balance is way overrated. There is no RPG game I have ever played where every race/class was perfectly balanced. The only way to do that is to remove classes (like Skyrim did) and remove all racial bonuses/penalties. Then all you really have is the look of your avatar to make you special.

Ever play a Nord mage? Or a High Elf warrior? I have and they are a lot of fun and challenge to play.

Best post ever!

Did it ever occur to you that challenging yourself is the prerogative of some players and not all? Some players do like aesthetics to take priority over how practical their choices are. Players shouldn't be limited by their character build, I played both Morrowind and Oblivion and liked how the beast races could wear a full suit of armor in Oblivion, it was one of the many improvements Oblivion had over Morrowind. And the issue isn't "This race is better at archetype X than the one I want to play!" because you can STILL play that archetype. And the best part was Bethesda did balance it out; on normal difficulty the Khajiiti mage I played didn't have a problem plowing through enemies because Bethesda made the differences between races rather minute. Sure, a High Elf or Breton is better for a mage than a Khajiit, but in the end, it was more of a matter of player skill and not "OOH! this race gets a bonus to magicka!!!" Some minor bonuses to a certain playstyle archetype is fine, but not penalizing 2 races by not letting them wear a complete armor set.

My bet is most of the people supporting the Morrowind style is because they're just doing it out of spite that the Argonians whooped their sorry butts (ahem, Dunmer). It was poetic justice, IMO.

Whilst I did enjoy the uniqueness added to the beast races with their funny feet and faces, I wouldn't want them to be disadvantaged races.

I voted other to say I would prefer the feet to be smaller and have seperate models for the beast feet (like in DraketheDragon's Argonian Beautification) and possibly for the head as well.

Alternatively it could become an option in Character Generation. "Your head is too big, you can't wear hats, reduce size to prevent shunning" would be a beautiful message to read in any game in my opinion.

i dont want to not be able to wear this sick armor because I'm a khajiit or argonian. that'd svck. it would be cool though if the armor looked different for the beast races though, just so it makes sense. kinda like Soul Calibur 4 did for Lizardman if anyone knows what i'm talking about.

Uhm... this isn't Earth. Bethesda can use any physiology they damn well please. Why should it adhere to the biological laws of our planet?


All YOU need to do is to stop wearing full faced helmets. Did you think of that one? I don't like them either, but that doesn't mean I think everyone who DOES enjoy them shouldn't get the opportunity to wear them regardless.

There are / should be PLENTY of helmets wearable by beast races.

I don't have much problem with helmets and boots forming to fit whatever race happens to be using them. I do think it would be nicer if Beast race helms and boots were their own items, as I think there is enough distinction in design, but I'm not really adamant about it.

Limitation is literally the only reason to have a character build at all.

When this is a game that lets you pick a bunch of perks and level any skill you damn well please in an effort to make it where the second you're out of the tutorial you can pick how you play, limiting a player's ability to use something in game based on racial choices makes as much sense as getting on the tracks and running at a coal train.

The most there should be in racial differentiation is some powers, basic skill bonuses and penalties and a modifier to base disposition from other races. That is good and possible to overcome with player skill. Making it where you can't wear boots because you're an anthropomorphic cat or iguana is impossible to overcome and bad.

Exactly, you pick how you play. Meaning if I choose to play this way I'm not necessarily entitled to also play this way. Beast armor should be complete because it makes sense for it to be complete, not because there shouldn't be inherent advantages/disadvantages (even significant ones) to certain races.

Well I'd rather have the beast removed from the game altogether than have be just furry or scaley humans. I remember reading with OB came out that the reason they 'humanized' the beast in OB was due to the lack of time to make them unique. That may have just been concerning the walk though.

Well at least I had Tigger: http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/Image.php?id=64551&return_section=POTD.Detail&return_id=8629

Well, there weren't plenty in Morrowind. Imperial Legion Helm(Worst Heavy Helm), Colovian Fur Hat(Worst Light Helm), and Chainmail Coif(Worst Medium Helm) were the only open-faced helms I can remember in Morrowind.

Also, feline faces are very similar to human faces, to the point of mutual empathy. It's part of the reason Felinemorphic humans (Humans with cat-like qualities) are so ubiquitous in fiction.


I'm wondering where the idea that the shape of the shoe needed to fit either is really needed... At most, all you'd have to do to get a boot to fit a digitigrade Khajiit is extend the distance of the arch of the shoe/boot, and cutting off the sole between the ball and heel of the foot for balance and comfort. Or, you can use the same power that lets Nords stretch Bosmer armor over their forms to stretch the shoe over a digitigrade foot and make it fit.

As I said before, the armor of the beast races should be unique. Also, using Garrus as an example was poor choice, because, http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/04/25/mass-effect-the-origin-of-species.aspx, they used the same skeleton and animations for most of the races (it made combat easier). That's why they look so similar, at least in the basic respects. He's not really digitigrade, they just made some pretty armor so he would look digitigrade.

I didn't really care about the limitations on clothing with Argonians, but I'd prefer that mainly because my Argonian character looked really weird with the Fox Cowl on. But that does raise the question about how quest items could/should be altered for beast races.

Those fossils are totally http://namelessclan.ucoz.ru/img/pzdc/pzdc2/pzdc3/legs.gif. Eeeeeeeyup.


Which is unrelated since I was addressing the lack of proper models only. If you don't like Garrus' example - look at the sangheli and first guard one. If you don't like those too, just let me know, I'll look up more.

Guess what: Aside from a mesh offset on the legs, Bipedal digitigrade(Walk on balls of the feet) and ungulate movement(hooves/toes) looks nearly identical to plantigrade movement. When you only have two legs, you don't have a lot of options on how to use them. Morrowind made the beast feet too big.

I'm a self-styled expert on fantasy biology, especially regarding zoomorphic humans.

And to the guy above me... if you're saying Dinosaurs are reptiles... :facepalm: . The digitgrade dinosaur's closest genetic animals still around today look something http://static.mypetchicken.com/images/chickenPix/large/CUS_Bantam_Rooster_DD.jpg. Again, T-Rex and the assorted raptors were birds. Or, something that's not quite a reptile, not quite a bird, somewhere between them, and a lot more awesome: Dragons

Argonians are not Dragons. And there has only been one game where they have been digitigrade.



Umm... everyone looked really wierd with the Fox Cowl on :tongue: