So, based on what little we know so far from the SPECIAL distribution at chargen, and the perk chart shown in the promotional screenshot and bundled with the Collector's Edition, we'll be getting 70 perks organized by SPECIAL, some of them with multiple ranks.

Speculation time: My guess is that we'll get some way to raise our SPECIAL stats, maybe by spending a perk point on the SPECIAL row of the chart to raise that stat instead of taking a perk. If there's no limit on how much we can raise SPECIAL this way, it would take 42 levels to reach 10 in all SPECIAL. Add in all of the perks and you'd have to reach (at the very minimum, since there are ranked perks) level 112 in order to get max SPECIAL and every perk. Given Bethesda's design philosophy, and what they did with Legendary skills in Skyrim (which technically enabled players to get every perk, but in practice it was implausible to level that much through normal gameplay), I'm pretty sure Fallout 4 won't have a level cap and we'll actually be able to reach that point, although I hope it becomes painfully slow to level up past level 50 or so.

My question in this thread is, should the player character be able to max out their SPECIAL and take every perk at some point? My opinion is yeah, it should be possible, but it should take waaay more time than a player would normally spend on a single character, and leveling should get exponentially slower after a point.

How much effort should it take to max out our character? Should it be possible at all? Explain your concerns.

Voted No. The game shouldn't allow the player to play long enough to max out everything; much less even give the option of that. Maxing out anything should come at the cost of something else... not merely delaying it until later.

No. This is why I dont have a problem with level capping (one that you can reach anyway). FONV did well in the fact that once you reached the vanilla level cap of 30, you had some skills maxed but certainly not a alot of them.

Yes, but it should be an achievement to earn, not practically guaranteed via most playthroughs.

Something like that damned Stones of Bareneziah quest from Skyrim, where you need to play through just about all available content to complete. If I want to get max SPECIAL and all perks, I should be able to, but *only* if I work myself half to death for it.

No, I don't really see the point in making different characters with different skills perks and S.P.E.C.I.A.L. stats when you can just max out one character but that's just me.

I initially voted an astounding, no. However, that is a reflection of the fact that I don't play with a set level in goal. When their story is done, game over. Level is irrelevant. It's just my playstyle.

By the same token, I am choosing to cap my character at any level his story deems. If the PC is a master of conventional weapons and they start a profound interest in plasma rifles, I don't want him or her limited by not being able to peruse that interest.

I try to support player option mechanics, no matter my views on the feature. I am compelled to vote yes, with a long road to get there.

I don't see the point in that but I voted for yes, but it should take a huge amount of time and effort.

No, because each character a person plays, should be unique from the others they might play as. If you can max out SPECIAL and Perks, what's the point of having a specialized character to begin with? Fallout isn't about making a God-like character, and shouldn't be.

Yeah, ideally Fallout 4's leveling system won't make us choose a perk as soon as we level up, so that some players can just stop spending perks when they feel like they have enough or want to impose their own limitations. I liked Fallout 3's leveling system, but I'm not a fan of a hard level cap and being forced to take a perk as soon as we level; that's how they balanced endgame perks, though, so I understand why the leveling system was the way it is.

Normally I'd agree, and honestly I won't be upset at all if there's still a level cap or a limit on how far we can go. But Skyrim's legendary skills makes me think about it, since they only made it almost impossible to max out everything, instead of completely impossible. With Skyrim (or Fallout 3, arguably) their focus shifted from character creation to character development, and I feel like we can still develop unique playstyles and characters if they handle it right.

I mean, I hate in JRPGs where the end goal is to just get the Ultima weapon and armor, and character development is so linear that every character is the same by the time they roll into the final boss. But I think there's something cool about that goal being attainable through enough effort, like it's more bragging rights than anything since you'd be way past the point where anything was difficult in the first place.

I voted "Yes", but again, it should take a ton of time, effort, and even some trickery. It should be tough and complicated to do so, and not something that the average player would even know about.

Implementing a level cap restricts the character too much. I create characters as unique as possible. That means some will be skilled in more areas than others. A meathead brawler may only specialize in a few skills like bug guns, big hammers and big armor. An assassin with be skilled with an intellect for infiltration with lockpick and science. A master of long range, stealth, melee, unarmed, explosives...

I believe that in Bethesda's games, a jack-of-all trades character is a valid roleplaying strategy. Bethesda's games mostly involve lone heroes. In real life, if I am alone in the wilderness fending for myself you'd better believe I want a lot of skills so I can survive. In a Bethesda game we are a lot like pioneers on the American frontier. We have to depend on ourselves for a lot of things. So I think a jack-of-all-trades character is perfectly fine, roleplaying-wise.

Specialization is something that mainly happens when groups of people are organized to pursue a single task, an environment in which each person can master a discipline and contribute his expertise for the good of the group. Roleplaying parties are tiny bureaucracies. As such, compartmentalization makes some small amount of limited sense in Dungeons and Dragons or a Bioware game. I think narrow, focused characters make less sense, most of the time, in Bethesda's games

I think we should be able to max out whatever we want to max out. It's a single-player game. If you max out your characters it's no sweat off my back. Myself, I have no interest in Fallout 3's "Almost Perfect" perk. I have never taken it and I never plan to. But I think it should be there for those who want it.

Options are good. Removing options are bad.

You should absolutely be able to be a master of everything if you so.choose to be...no point in being forced to use a diff character just because you decide you want to be great at medicine now but are maxed out...nomsayin

Fallout shouldn't just be a version of Elder Scrolls with guns, and this is a step towards just that. Let Skyrim/TES have Legendary Skills, and making the PC into a God/God-like character. Fallout doesn't need that in it, because it's not about maxing out everything, so nothing can stand in the PC's way. It will get old real quick if Fallout and TES just become clones of each other. It will become that whichever game comes first with new abilities or ways of doing things, then everyone will know what the other has coming when it's announced and released.

Let's not make Fallout and TES something like Call of Duty and Battlefield, near clones of one another, let's have them be unique for their settings, not just a reskin of the other. Let them both bring players something fun and unique, that the other doesn't have.

And how could you brag about maxing out SPECIAL, if all your friends can do it to? There's nothing to brag about. So you max out your Fallout character, and go to brag to your friends, but they turn around and brag about how they maxed their TES character. It's pointless, it doesn't add anything to the game, or who does what.

The point is to plausibly solve the game within the limitations of the identity played. If the character has no limitations, then roleplaying them lacks a point.

I get what your saying..not all of us Roleplay tho I love having a power character save and I don't think beth will limit this as they're very big on player freedom

I voted yes because I don't see the point of limiting how other people play.

I just know that when I get to a certain level of power, where the game doesn't really seem challenging anymore, I go beat the "main quest" and retire that character.

Then I make a new character and start again.

If other people want to max everything out and lay waste to every NPC then that's cool with me. Letting them do that doesn't affect me at all.

I think you are right; (I also think it's a shame, because they are selling it as an RPG, and they also included it into an excellent RPG series.)

Anyone can play any game ~any way they want; but a developer should not hamstring a game for mass-sales appeal, it cheats the customers that bought it (in this case as an RPG), because of what it said it was.

You are assuming, of course, that a charachter with no potential limitations will eventually and automatically becomes the best at everything. This is not the case if, in order to do that, they actually have to go out and really work at it.

Look at Skyrim. I can bet you MOST players don't reach the level cap, let alone use the legendary system to exceed it and really master everything. Why would an archer who favors the use of poisons and the occasional sword decide to study any of the magic schools? They have no real reason to, even though they certainly could use it and become the best damn archer/mage out there in the history of ever.

I take your 'No' and raise it to a hell no.

I don't think anyone has actually completely maxed out their character in Skyrim, with Legendary skills (exploits notwithstanding). Hell, the highest I ever got was 70, and I usually run out of things to do by level 50 or so. If Fallout 4 follows a similar curve, I don't think it would be a huge problem to let people spend the extra effort to max out their character. And as long as there aren't any loops or exploits for free XP, it won't be as easily exploitable as Legendary skills in Skyrim were.

And I'm not sure we should be concerned about Fallout and the Elder Scrolls becoming too similar, or at least more similar than they already are. They'll both be open-world RPGs with a focus on player freedom, natch, but it's actually possible that they become even less similar as Bethesda becomes more comfortable with the Fallout IP and starts experimenting with different things with each franchise. There's already some key differences in design philosophy, particularly in quest design and how you roleplay in each series, and those differences might become even more significant down the road. We won't really know until TESVI, which is many years away.

Maybe nobody has completely maxed their character in Skyrim, I haven't, but it's still a possibility. And for Fallout, that shouldn't be an option, because again, the point of the game isn't a fantasy one, with PC's becoming near god-like. Being able to take on a Deathclaw, isn't the same as taking on a Dragon.

And I think we should be concerned about Fallout and TES becoming just reskins of the other. Those key differences you gave, are few. In F4 we already have the ability of build a house or settlement, just as we were able to build a house in Skyrim. Like Skyrim, F4 had certain things that were important to people, taken out for likely "streamlining" reasons, as they were in Skyrim. And when TES VI comes, what's in F4, hopefully won't be copied into it, but I'm not holding my breath on it.

This ^ (and every similar comments)

It's an option, don't want it, don't take it, period.

Perks will likely be dished out every two levels like in FO3 and NV, so being able to get all perks on one character will likely be impossible so mastering a select few would probably be the way to go, but saying that, we don't know the level cap for the game so its hard to say what will be achievable, but if it's anything like previous titles in terms of level cap and perk gain it will certainly be impossible to obtain every perk and max out every special attribute.

Other questions I would ask about becoming a master of everything: What do you think Bethesda will do? And, how much do you care?