What was Lady N's theory again? I wanna see Jyggalag in DLC. Where we could join the Priests of Order as the Champion of Jyggalag, and get special spells and stuff, and go to his realm (i'm sure Bethesda, if anyone, could make Jyg's realm interesting). Or help him March the Grey into other pockets of Oblivion (not prince's main realms, just other pockets under their control).

http://imperial-library.info/content/arden-sul-1 That's the proper FSG link.

I have a theory of my own, we all know that the realm of a daedra is the extension of their power but what if in actuality....ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

What if the realm itself is the Daedra prince and the avatars that gain the mantle of the daedra princes are nothing but a figurehead used to communicate with mortals...though it all sounds insane and probably is wrong.

Conventional fanon has that as mostly accurate. The metaphor I use is imagine a stellar gravity well as being the physical prince, passively effecting everything in the universe. That is the actual Prince. The avatar is a manifestation of that power to guide and harness the massive amount of energy being produced... usually with the purpose of gaining more influence/mass/power.

I always hated that theory because when Sheo became Jyggalag, why wasn't half of the Isles coated in them crystals he loves so much?

I don't follow. They isles were covered in them. The Font of Madness, the source of Sheogorath's power as it flows into the Isles was almost turned orderly were it not for an enterprising Duke of Madness. The Avatar isn't fully aware it's happening (he knows it's coming) until his subjects confirm it for him and then he slowly withers into Jyggalag. You can see the toll it takes for him to keep himself asserted. Even before the Greymarch, the obelisks were always there, a sign of what Sheogorath used to be.

Cuz Sheo and Jyg are 2 different princes probably. At least they are now. Or because the gremarch wasn't over.

If the Prince is his realm, which is supposedly the truth, then what were the princes before they made their realms? How can a prince have multiple realms? Why is there no 'medium' daedra, being between a prince and a lesser daedra? How did meridia, malacath, peryite and possibly magnus (if dagon) get their own realms?

Maybe Jyggalag isn't in Skyrim because he's making his new realm by pulling energy out of aetherius. I always assumed he would reclaim his old realms, but he's probably not powerful enough without a base.

Lady N's theory makes a lot of sense, particularly as it did seem odd that Arden-Sul seemed to be far more important than Sheogorath himself to the people of the Shivering Isles. The idea that Arden-Sul became Sheogorath by mantling Lorkhan/Akatosh, whereas the Champion became Sheogorath by mantling Sheogorath, also fits.

The thing that's nagged me about the Shivering Isles is that the duration of the cycle, when Jyggalag returns, seems to be longer than the entire history of Tamriel; it suggest that duality predates this kalpa. That doesn't fit with Sheogorath/Jyggalag coming into existence with the removal of Lorkhan's heart.

Oh, I see where the point of divergence is. Yeah, the point I was trying to make was that there is the infinite concept-being/unknowable Et'Ada known (in this case) as Madness. Madness collected some creatia flotsam and created the Shivering Isles and then manifested itself in a form/active intelligence mortals can understand as Sheogorath. That was the conventional fanon I was trying to express, I was saying that that's somewhat with this realm=Prince idea.

Since these Et'Ada are abstract creatures, when a concrete being representing Madness turned into a concrete being representing Order, Madness would've changed as well, except there was a concrete being already representing Madness. Abstract flowed from concrete (as symbolism is wont to do), and Jyggalag was free of Sheogorath at last.

Why shouldn't the CoC be Sheo? Only Sheo would destroy a fellow Daedra's plans of taking over Nirn and doom the empire at the same time. Only Sheo would summon himself to his own realm to rescue himself from himself. He doesn't need a reason for all this, everything makes sense to him.

That's what I like about Sheo, he isn't mad, he IS madness itself. You can use him everywhere. Maybe he was the Nerevarine, since fulfilling only parts of the prophecy would be fun for him. Or he was the agent, dragon breaks are fun too. Or maybe he is the last dragonborn because he wanted to save all the cheese in the world from getting eaten by Alduin.

The 16 Accords of Madness are probably the best collection of short stories I have ever read and I think there should be 16 of them.

"The staff is the key. The font a trap of negatory baptism. The Sheogorath is but a curse. Sheogorath is but a spokesman.
A representative of the lost tree without a master. That one and everything, mother without son, sinister Rajhin of children.

Once you walk the warden's road; you'll see the first wizard of new sheoth, calibration of old Jygallag, orderly yet sinful prison of not him, but them.
See black / gold, see purple or silver, it matters not. Jygallag has seen the walk talk of them, found those, unchained them. Played chess, with them.

Broken padomaic? incorrect. Quarantine? positive. Promotional godship will not have been processed there.
Attainment of puppetry counsel or plumber for anu-sylvan though? all definite. Be aware, cattle prod, always."

―The Blind Netchiman of Twelve, not Two.

You think everyone calls you Sheogorath in the end. You think you can speak with mad beggars. But you can't. You are just crazy.

I prefer to think that you just went insane in the Shivering Isles, thinking you became Sheogorath, but in reality you were just a crazy person
I don't like the whole mantling thing at all :/

And I think the insanity interpretation is too much like "It was all a dream!"

And.. Big Head was the Tower?

Literally, as in Numidium and White Gold and all that. The Fork of Horripulation was the Stone.

Some people think Sheogorath replaces himself a lot. Well he's prob only been replaced once, by CoC. According to Dyus:

"Yes. Only then can I create an appropriate vessel to hold the power that is inherent in the lord of this realm. The Staff may allow you to occupy the Throne of Madness, but understand that such a feat has never been attempted. All sources indicate that you will fail. It is a certainty. However, I also predict that this will not stop you from trying."

That also means Jyggalag's formula isn't perfect.

As for you who think Sheo wasn't replaced... ask yourselves: how long did Beth spend on that expansion? There's no way it was all just one big trip.

You're thinking of it backwards. The daedric princes never got realms, the realms got daedric princes.

What about the Magna Ge then? The Aedra? Meridia? How do Princes have multiple realms? I heard the Daedra form their realms out of Aetherial refuse.

That would be how to gain form. They need matter, and in TES matter is just baser forms of mythology and magic, which come from Aetherius. Magna Ge live in Aetherius already, Aedra are half in Aetherius and half body parts that make up Mundus, Meridia, like Sheog and Dagon, is one of those weird ones who had to change to fit the mold.

And while I respect other people's opinions, I think SI actually happened for the same reason I think Vivec wasn't kidding when he said he got CHIM and retroactively split a timeline: What narrative purpose is served by the main character being crazy? None. Yet narrative and mythic purpose is served by having Sheogorath being mantled and Jyggy being forestalled.

And on a simply practical level, Sheogorath plainly does have a chaimberlain named Haskill and a realm called the Shivering Isles with a town called Passwall and a capital of New Sheoth because he says so in Skyrim to the Dragonborn. So why would the CoC be seeing true on this and nothing else? Complexity may be good, but complexity to no purpose is both meaninglessly irritating and not Betheda's style, which is complexity to add depth.