I think the boomers would be dead. Caesar would probably send some frumantarri to infiltrate their base and wreak havoc.

Brotherhood would use the Legion invaders as target practice....seriously machetes against power armor and energy weapons. LOL

*sigh*

Recruit Legionary equipment:
Throwing spears
9mm pistol
Cowboy Repeater
Single shotgun
10mm pistol
.357 magnum revolver
Varmint rifle
Caravan shotgun
Machete

Legionnaire Scout equipment:
Hunting Rifle

Legion Explorer equipment:
Hunting rifle
Throwing spear(s)
Machete

Assassin equipment:
10mm submachine gun
12.7mm pistol
sniper rifle
Thermic lance
9MM SMG
Shishkebab
Machete

Decanus equipment:
Throwing spears
10mm SMG
9mm SMG
Machete

Praetorian Guard equipment:
Ballistic Fist (2nd best unarmed weapon.)

Prime equipment:
Hunting shotgun
Machete gladius
.44 magnum revolver
Power fist
Hunting rifle
10mm SMG
Marksman carbine
Chainsaw

Veteran equipment:
12.7mm submachine gun
Hunting rifle
Machete
Power fist
Fire axe
Marksman carbine
Throwing spears
Cowboy repeater
.44 magnum revolver

Centurion equipment:
Machete Gladius
Chainsaw
Thermic Lance
Hunting Shotgun
Marksman carbine
Super Sledge
Anti-Materiel Rifle

Could people for the love of Bruce Willis stop ignoring Legion lore?
They don't use just machetes for crying out loud.

And Centurions' armors are decorated with pieces of enemies they've killed.
Guess what that includes? Power armor...
Caesar even says that Legion could very well take out the BOS bunker but that it would risk a lot of lives.
Even so, they can take out BOS.
If they made it to the Mojave first that means that the BOS are at Helios One, not their ultimate defense bunker at Hidden Valley.

Please, stop ignoring Legion lore.
They are not a bunch of cavemen with pointy sticks and rusty blades.
No matter how much you hate them you cannot ignore their lore.

Note: gameplay is flawed in representing legionnaires according to their lore in terms of their combat efficiency, so taking 3 NCtRoopers and 3 legionnaires won't depict a battle true to their lore.

I'll give you the other two because I'm not in the mood to discuss it sense we don't actually see it in game so there for believe what ever the hell you want, but this right here is BS. If the Great Kahns were willingly joining the Legion then why didn't they just make the older members citizens? Why is that one scientist so special that he may be chosen as one? It just isn't consistent in what we see in that ending. Also note when I say elders I don't mean higher up Kahn members it says elderly as in just plain old farts :tongue: .

Like I said you can fight for the other two but this one is rock solid no elderly or sick or being integrated into Legion because they aren't useful to them.

Dude, I saw 5 legionaries get owned by 5 merchants/caravan guards. Not one of the merchants/caravans died. I laughed my butt off. Imagine what one paladin can do.

I'll bet 50 bucks on 5 paladins with tri-beam laser rifles and gatling lasers against 15 Centurians with whatever garbage they wield

Yup.
I honestly don't understand the way they choose things.

But let's take a couple of examples and speculate.

Primm and Vegas' people are largely left as citizens which they lord over. Why?
I think it's cause these people are civilized people who try to work to make a better tomorrow (Excluding the casino's of course).
I think that people in towns are allowed to become citizens as they are part of a civilized world.

So let's look at "tribes" then.
Tribes largely don't contribute to make the world better, to rebuild the world and try to start producing lost things and to make the world move forward.
Tribes are largely isolationist groups of people who hold true to their culture and goals.
Legion wants everything under their banner, nothing else is allowed to exist in their nation but their people.
So the Khans, they offer a good strategic point, to attack from the west at the Dam.
They are also strong warriors that could be integrated to make their army a tad bigger.
But do they contribute to the world?
Nope.
Their elders are part of a raiding tribe, they hold no knowledge of honest work.
As such they are not useful for the civilized world, they are not useful as slaves as they're old, and they're not useful as legionnaires because the older they are the harder it's going to be for them to let go of their past.

My guess is that the elders post a threat to their Legion due to them being older, wiser and more stuck up with their beliefs.
So they're a "threat" that must be eliminated.

So to shorten it down:
Towns are useful for production.
Tribes are blights on their lands that needs to be A. Killed. B. Enslaved. C. Integrated.

But that's just my speculation of it.


Note: gameplay is flawed in representing legionnaires according to their lore in terms of their combat efficiency, so taking 3 NCtRoopers and 3 legionnaires won't depict a battle true to their lore.

@Obsidian, for [censored]s sake update the Legion so that they become an actual challenge. Give them +10 DAM and +30% attack speed with Melee/Unarmed weapons, give them +4% critical chance, give them +20% running speed and give them +50% limb health.
The fact that the legionnaires fail their ambush on a caravan north of Wolfhorn Ranch is evidence that they are not depicted according to their lore in gameplay.
Screw weapon tweaking in the next patch, tweak Legion to make them better.

That Legion equipment you listed is flawed btw Gab.

Thats simply the game trying to keep up with your level.
Yes I know it says so in the wikia blah blah wah..
I've seen them use that stuff myself, but then again I've been a level 35 GOD wandering around for quite a long time..

Not sure where you get this 'lore' about their weapons from tbh, I hope to goodness it's not taken from the wikia, which is in turn taken from gameplay.. lmao

Yah that does make me wonder, since the Legion isn't as tech hungry as NCR could have Elijah gotten Archimedes online, and personally from my perspective I think if the legion didn't try to take Helios One then the BoS would have a larger force and due to the fact that most legionaries carry melee weapons they could hold out pretty well. And how awesome would it be to be able to start a Play through with a certain factions control of the dam?

Taken from both wikia and gameplay yes.
So?

In lore they're trained daily, constantly going out on missions, and are willing to fight to the death for Caesar.
They use light armor so that they can move faster and ambush easier.
Yet in gameplay legionnaires use the awful gamebryo AI and can't ambush for [censored].
They're suppose to be deadly with a blade once they get close yet when they get up close to an enemy in the game they just whack at them a couple of times.
Lore says that they're vicious soldiers proficient in both firearms, melee, ambushes and guerilla tactics.
But in gameplay they are just as herp derp as any other enemy with the AI.
They're not depicted correctly in actual combat gameplay. (Neither is Khans, NCRangers or Super Mutants for that matter.)
I put half the blame on Gamebryo as it has never been able to produce a good enemy AI and half the blame on Obsidian who didn't balance them out properly.

Agreed but that wasn't my point.
the Legion do have soldiers that are proficent at firearms but not 'all' of them have firearms..
The reason you see more and more of them with firearms (excluding the dam battle obviously) is because of 'your' level..

It's kind of like the albino radscorpions from FO3, the higher your level the more likely you are to encounter one...

There is also one thing noone seems to have pointed out so far, 'if' the ncr didn't get to the area first, there would have been no ranger unification treaty..

So not only would the Legion have a lot more BoS to deal with (possible with a fricken doomsday weapon)
They'd have to deal with the desert rangers...

Oh, the actual weapons?
Well, yes, their equipment levels with the player, but I don't think it should discredit the lore of weapons in usage by Legion.
I guess one way to explain it could be that as the player levels up time passes right?
Days still come and go.
Since Legion are calling many of their forces to the Mojave for the battle I guess they bring with them their armaments too.
So say that at lvl 40 it's been 3 months, during these three months Legion has been gathering resources, equipment and soldiers to prepare for the dam.
And as the new armaments are coming in they upgrade their equipment from a simple machete to a hunting rifle and a machete when they get back to camp.

I dunno, that's one way to explain it I guess.



Well they knew about the Legion prior to NCR coming there so they made a treaty with NCR to fight them.
I think they knew that they couldn't handle Legion alone and decided to join forces with NCR to stand a better chance.
If they could've taken care of Legion themselves then there'd be no reason for them to join NCR.
Maybe make an alliance with the NCR and operate as their own law and order, sure.
But to actually merge into the NCR?
To me it sounds like they feared Legion and knew they couldn't stand up against them alone.
Even so, what did we all learn from Helios One? If the quantity is high enough then Quantity>Quality.

The lore is based on the game of fallout. The legion is good at guerilla warfare, guerilla warfare is hiding in holes waiting to strike not an invasion strategy; it's defensive. Caesar with an army against that of NCR or BoS would be like the last samurai when Tom Cruise fought the Japanese army. Tom Cruise and his samurais got slaughtered.

I guess thats one way to explain it, I don't really see it myself as people level up at completely different speeds.
I'd be more inclined to think it was merely a gameplay mechanic tbh.
However as there isn't really anything to either prove or disprove that belief than I guess you're entitled to think what you like lol

Thats an awful lot of personal opinion in their Gab..
I've never seen anything in-game that shows me the Vet Ranger (Desert Rangers) are afraid of anything...
Helios one showed that two warring factions when engaged in a battle in a poorly defensible building would have a predictable outcome, sure.
The Legion aren't 'at war' with the BoS in the same way the ncr are though, they aren't looking for power sources either so IMO they aren't going to engage the Bos like the ncr did at Helios.
As for the Desert Rangers, sure, if for some strange reason a group of hardened fighters with extensive knowledge of the terrain manage to find themselves all holed up in a badly defended building the Legion might be able to slaughter then after a while..
Not really an issue though I don't think as the rangers would be the ones in all the best positions with escape routes etc..

Again just opinions but I think they seem to make more sense.. lol

As for the Desert Rangers joining the ncr because of the Legion?
The Desert Rangers joined the ncr because they have almost identical ideals and the DR's merely saw it as a better way to protect a larger area..
Not everything that happened in the mojave is related to the Legion..

1. :shrug: Too bad we don't got to talk to an actual Desert Ranger in the game, one who deserted and one who joined NCR to give better perspective on them. Currently all we can do is speculate, and it seems ours are different. Still, we're both just speculating so which one is correct remains to be seen if seen at all.

2. Caesar pretty much hates BOS as well and wants them gone so if they got to the Mojave first then there are five things to worry about: Desert Rangers, BOS, Boomers, Khans and Vegas.
Since Caesar knows that the Boomers are dangerous he'd likely leave them alone or take them on last. Khans and Vegas are small fry, so this leaves BOS and Desert Rangers, since Legion does not have to focus their army on a large scale threat, the NCR, they can focus their resources on these two factions, and like NCR did at Helios One the Legion will also be able to succeed with.
They have the quantity to overwhelm both BOS and Desert Rangers.
So while Helios One might not be of interest to the Legion what is of interest is tribes on their newly conquered lands.

3. Depends on how it's done really. A frumentarii could act as a trader, trade with the Desert Rangers for two months and resupply them while Leigon does small skirmishes very carefully so no legionnaires get hurt.
Then the frumentarii could, amongst the goods, plant C4 or radiate the water and food he brings to them.
Not all battles has to happen with brute force vs brute force.
Gotta think outside of the box sometimes.
And Legion, as shown with Nipton, Ranger Station Charlie, I Put A Spell On You and Searchlight definitely knows how to think outside of the box.

1, Yes we have some Legion supporter speculation and regular speculation.

2, Caesar would somehow have intimate knowledge of all the mojave area upon first reaching there? I think not..
When you speak to Caesar don't forget he's been there for a very long time. The BoS were on the way to the dam when they first change course and went to Helios instead, thats wayyy way way before the first battle even occured, certainly before all location could be known by Eddy..

3, Yeah possible I guess. Kinda doubtfull though. You ever tried to pickpocket a vet ranger? I've pickpocketed everyone in the game except them and I have HUGE amounts of patience. Also when you try and sneak past the Rangers in Arizona killer they spot you immediately.. Of course they did overwhelm ranger station charlie but then again you have to ask yourself, would they even have attempted to do it if they were Ranger Vets in there instead of possibly poorly equipped regular rangers/comm officers?
(chief Hanlon messing with the radio reports, not proven but possible)

I think the bottom line is that although its possbile that the Legion would have come in first and have control much like the ncr, its just as likely the inhabitants kicked their asses back to Arizona, lets not forget, the ncr didn't come in and take over with force, they used something way more powerful, diplomacy.. Even with the great Khans, Bitter springs only happened after the Khans started nibbling at them..

Sadly though my personal favourite character 'House' probably wouldn't get to see his plans to fruition, the legion would more than likely just blow up the dam generators and eldorado if they got their first, just so noone else could use them :S

Helios is not untouchable. Easy way to deal with Archimedes. Go to Helios and shoot all the solar panels. Snipe them from a distance if need be, or fire some missiles at them.

Yes and its crap. It has to many flaws. Just because it has bits and pieces of power armor on it doesnt mean it great...

No, it doesn't. What it DOES mean is that they've successfully taken down a chapter/squad/few BoS Paladins down, which is in itself an achievement for a society that relies on primitive tools. While I look down on the Legion, I must respect their ability to kill powerful foes.

Try it?

I have not tired it. Wonder if we can :ermm:

If they can't be destroyed that is just because the Devs did not think to give us the ability to do so. Still they are just highly reflective mirrors/solar panels, missiles and bullets would/should damage them.

Ahh I see, so your plan on attacking the plant is prior knowledge of the workings, the legion having missile launchers (which they don't) and hoping the defensive range of the plants security measures is fairly short?
I can see why you'd think a friggin orbital laser platform would have a limited radius of attack though.. :S

It is possible, takes some luck / skill / stats / equipment but it is possible to sneak through the AK portion.
Also it's down to game mechanics than anything else, a way to ramp up difficulty and impose some tension on a situation that really would be a cake walk otherwise.

NV has alot of cases where gameplay, lore and obvious things that would easily be possible with a little thought all conflict and create loopholes that we need McGuffins to explain away.

We don't know if they don't make use of missile launchers. In New Vegas they are very rare, stands to reason they are rare for the legion as well.

True it would help to have working knowledge of how Helios One protects itself but it would not take long for the Legion to cause damage to Helios One. The busted panels could have been caused by NCR during their fight against the BoS.

So how long would it before stray bullets damage some panels? The defence laser weapon only kills those around Helios itself. A good sniper Rifle like the Anti-material rifle can hit things at 2km away.

Very long shot, they could wait till there is a cloudy day :laugh:

Also isn't it still just a once a day thing? The laser kills the first wave but the defenders are screwed by the second.

There are lots of missile launchers in the mojave don't talk wet. We never see the Legion with them = they don't *have* them..
Anyway with no NCR in the region you think that an -undecimated Mojave chapter wouldn't have scouts in the area and gauss touting snipers on the roof etc?
Come on, you're giving the Legion far too much credit here.
All the way through the dead money dlc it talks about elijah almost touching the sun etc.. Yet you pass it off with remarks like "Ehe they could just fire a missile at it.." Come on now..

And 2k kilometers with the AMR? Your just making stuff up now, perhaps I missed it but I don't remember seeing 'any' Legion snipers, I saw them using AMR's on the dam a few meters away, you talking about those legion?