With regard to your triangle, I would like to point out that many of us are not writing novels but something more akin to a Sunday comics ongoing narrative. Think of decades of 'Prince Valiant'. For that reason, there are likely to be many short duration peaks leading to new actions. For a forum fan fiction, The graph should probably look more like a sawtooth wave although the climactic events may be spread over a few posts or several threads.

Not being a trained writer, I find it easier to look at it from the viewpoint of what people are actually doing vs theory so don't put too much stock in what I say.

No, its not like saying any of those things. One thing you HAVE to understand is that the laypeople of Tamriel don't know about the dreamsleeve, they don't know about the Godhead, and those that don't worship the daedra do think the daedra are demons. It has been well established in the lore that "demon" is a term people use to refer to daedra. Also, please note how the following text explains the etymology of the word "demon" in the TES 'verse.




The laypeople of the Nine divines religion seem to think they go to Aetherius when they die, The nords believe they go to Sovngarde when they die, which is like the heavenly mead hall of Shor. You need to remember that the laypeople have all sorts of misconceptions that would make terms like hell fully appropriate. Besides, hell doesn't just mean "the place where the sinners go," or some rot like that.

edit: and may I remind you that when people go to the dreamsleeve they experience the afterlife they were expecting. SO a Nord experiences Sovngarde, and those undead blades in Sancre Tor experienced Aetherius.


Defintions of hell:


more examples:



The fact of the matter is that using hell, demons, and etc. are fully appropriate in the TES 'verse, and it has nothing to do with sloppy writing or the like. The use of these terms is not a mistake, its a part of the TES world. Just because the there aren't actually demons (in the christian sense of the word) doesn't mean that Aedra worshipers don't think the Daedra ARE demons (In the sense of bad, evil, spirits). This is merely a matter of your own personal taste conflicting with the setting, and you shouldn't force this bit of personal taste on others.

Quite right, but not everyone pays too much attention in class. Besides, it's always good to have a refresher; the fundamentals are the most important parts of any kind of skill, especially in writing.



I'd like to ask any further discussion about Tes hell to stop, if you don't mind. It's an interesting debate, and I find myself agreeing with parts from both parties, but I would rather not take up room here with it. Not that I'm discouraging comments, I'd just like to stay on topic please. Thank you.

PS Nord dreamsleeve heaven is pretty much Valhalla But enough of that, I'm breaking my own rules here.



Hmm, I suppose you are right. I was never into the "funny" stories, being a more serious (as in stoic) writer myself, and really don't know how to write anything other than what I do. So most of my advice is going to be geared towards novella length stories, sorry.

And you think I am a trained writer? The most experience I've had is a year of writing here and a few years of English class. Most people (English majors excluded ) are self taught, many even start writing here. And I value your advice just like anyone else, Bob, I respect every writer here.


Thanks guys, I'm sorry that this was just a general overview article. Trying to gradually get to the real meat of it; I might do plots next week. Thanks again for all your help :goodjob:




EDIT:

:( Somehow your advice always manages to dishearten me. But I do recognize the truth behind it, everyone here that calls themselves a writer knows all of what I've said already. However, up to this point these have been geared mainly towards beginners, covering only the most basic of topics, and even then only briefly. I hope to get into more detail on certain things later, at which point it should become much more of a guide. Hence the title.

Truth be told I have very few opinions of my own. I'm a much more logical, scholarly person than an opinionated one, and rarely have new thoughts. I'm actually not that creative :shrug: However, there are benefits, what I do know I know fairly well, and do a decent job explaining it most of the time. I'm not entirely sure what you want me to write, everything I'm telling you has been said at one point or another. Writing is a very old art, and I'm really not in a position to be making any groundbreaking theories, so to speak.

Thanks for the TESFU mention, man. And we're still looking for members. You don't have to be a writer.

/shameless plug

I'll repeat what everyone else is saying, though. It's not much of a guide. You're not exactly explaining things, you're just giving us overviews that we've already read thousands of times. Give us your opinions, not what everyone else in the history of writing has already repeated.

Hey Red, hadn't seen you in a while.

Basically Darkom has this for beginners, and it certainly won't hurt anything, he's just trying to do something good for the forum and that is a good thing. I think the "show don't tell" thing needs to be addressed in some type of article where it is explained thoroughly, and I think Darkom, of all people, would be one of the very few people I would choose to do such a thing. The thing is, even though this is for beginner's, we can all improve. I don't care if you are this good or if you one such and such award. We all can improve.

In general writing, and even Roleplaying (which is writing if done write) you have improvement, which is more or less divided into sections. You have your little creep steps and your huge jumps. Most huge jumps are big transitions from going to "new" to "decent" and then from such and such overall "level" to the next. We all have room to improve, and none of us are perfect. Darkom is offering his opinion on things, and I personally think we should at least look at his ideals (and the same goes for everyone else). Darkom is a good writer, better than a lot out there, especially for his age (which is my age , also).

What people don't always realize is that we have a good fanfiction forum, a very good one. While it wasn't what it used to be, it is still amazing, better than 95% of FF forums out there. We need to learn from each other to perfect our skills, and this guide is something to help us do just that. If no one every criticized anyone and just let them do their thing, they won't see advice, and while they may get better, they won't have as much of an opportunity.

If these MMO rumors are true, and after it comes out, "Habbo" type writers come in, and the mods don't contain them, this forum is going to go down, down hard, damn hard.


Well I'm done with my little rant... Also, don't drag a lore argument on here >.> Take it to the lore section, that's why it is there.

Okay, I have a couple questions, and I'm sorry if I shouldn't be asking them here. :cold: I just need a lot of help if I'm ever going to post my stuff here.



What do you mean by self-insert? In my current fanfic, the main character has a few of my characteristics. Is that bad? Or do you mean actually taking myself as I am and sticking "me" in the story? Why is that bad? Wouldn't it be helpful as I would already know myself so I could be a reasonably easy character to work with?

Also, is it ever okay to add things that's not in-game? In SubRosa's fanfic (one of my absolute favorites, by the way :goodjob: ) sometimes her character or someone else has things like tea or potato bread. Or maybe it was cheesy bread. Either way, though they're not in the game, they are made from ingredients in the game. But what if Lilitu (my character) wants a chocolate or cinnamon croissant? A croissant can be made, but what about the chocolate or cinnamon?

That's all I can think of now, but any help would be greatly appreciated.

Your characters will usually have some sort of similarity with yourself, and most of the time you may not even realize it. It's just natural. However, a character (especially the protagonist) that is a carbon copy of you is no fun whatsoever. A writer can create a character similar to her/himself. A gifted writer can create a character with opposing views and morals.

The problem is that a carbon-copy of the writer will often be a Mary sue. its also, as you said, easy to write.


Potato bread appeared in oblivion. there was a quest where it was the reward. As for chocolate, read this:



When it comes to adding things, little things like spices and food don't have any real impact. Besides, the Tes games give very little detail on food, so you really need to invent. It's things like adding new races without explanation, Borg cubes, and violating the supremacy of the maternal genes in inter-racial breeding that you should seriously consider never doing.

Sorry for the delay, my dear friends, I'm glad school let out early so I could finally finish this. The third article will focus more in depth on plot, mainly on logical progression based on characters' decisions, which is essential to any story. I found myself at a rather loss for topics, so I am very much hoping some of you will see some flaws in my advice and have some good feedback soon Difficult to generalize the advice I usually tailor to fit one story. Anyway, here you are:

Part Three: Plot

All right, I gave a brief summary of what plot is in the last article, so I believe it is time to examine it more in depth. We have already established that plot encompasses all the events within a story, and it can be broken up into five overlapping parts. The plot can make or break your story; without a solid plot your story will quickly fall apart. No matter how good your characters are, or how exciting you make each scene, the story simply doesn't make sense without a sound plot.

Now the question becomes: How do I make a sound plot? Or, how can I be sure my plot is a good one? Well, just about any idea can make a good story, so don't think you need to have a grand elaborate idea to have a good plot. There are three major points of a plot, which I call the three C's.

Three C's- Conflict, Causality, and Character

Stories, for the most part, are character driven. This means that the action within the story should depend on or be shaped by the characters. While you can have a conflict or event caused by chance, these should not control your story. The story should start with something called a complication, an event that brings the protagonist out of his or her normal existence and into the main conflict of the story. The complication can be anything, from an earthquake to a murder, and it does not necessarily have to be directly caused by the character. I would advise making the complication related to the character, perhaps as a result of their lifestyle, but as it comes in the introduction it does not have to be.

Now, if the story must be driven by characters it would be against that idea to have seemingly random events occurring to the protagonist. An earthquake in the middle of a story would not be such a good idea; the rising action should follow a sensible pathway, with one event driving the next one. This is called causality, when the plot is caused by the character and his decisions. You can have forces out of the protagonist's control, but this tends to be less characterizing and quickly gets boring.

Say we wanted to make a story about revenge. The complication would be something along the lines of the protagonist's friend being murdered. This fuels the main conflict, the protagonist trying to catch his friend's killers. If he finally catches up to and kills one of the antagonists, a logical result of that would be the other antagonists trying to now take revenge on him. This is a simple example, but it more or less illustrates my point.

The enemy of causality is coincidence, in which events happen seemingly unrelated to the current flow of events. This can be obvious, a sudden and unlikely death, or subtle, such as the protagonist receiving sudden inspiration from a random source that then drives the plot. It can be used successfully, but novice writers should avoid it until they are accustomed to plot.

So, a story must be plausible, it must be able to convince the reader that the events that took place could happen. Even better it should feel like they simply had to happen, flowing naturally through the story to the point where you hardly notice it. Every character should be taken into account, for even minor characters should have realistic emotions, considering what they can and would do. For this you must get inside your character's head, to truly understand their situation and what options are available.

A story must also be suspenseful; it should have twists and turns, to keep the reader entertained. These can be dramatic cliffhangers or simply a natural evolution of the story, so long as logical events continuously take place. We should not be able to guess where the story is going, but once we read what happened it should make perfect sense (though more mysteries should appear).

There is no formula to know if your plot is logical. It takes good planning and plenty of experience to create an excellent plot, though a certain element of talent and creativity are involved. Keep looking at your plot from new angles, explore all the possible alternatives to an action, and decide what makes sense for the character. You can always ask someone else to look over your pre-writing to check your plot; they will frequently catch things that you do not.

Finally I will address the essential value of conflict within a story. As I said before, conflict is any opposition of forces within a story. This is a very broad definition, and includes everything from minor arguments between characters to a full scale war. The important thing to remember about conflict is that it too must be logical and hopefully character driven. The main conflict of your story should be of value to the protagonist for some reason, be it a moral mission or a personal vendetta.

The conflict should be focused enough so as not to confuse the reader, but it should be complex enough that you can expand upon it. If you are new you should probably start off simpler, perhaps just a hero vs. villain motif with some moral conflicts within the protagonist to convey the theme. If you are more experienced, however, I would recommend adding more elements of conflict, through more characters or more complex relationships between those characters. Have multiple characters or parties all competing simultaneously, some may be allies and some may be enemies, but the rest should just be striving towards a similar goal.

Finally, keep in mind that story ideas can come from anywhere, and any idea can be made into a worthwhile plot. The plot should depend on your characters, you shouldn't be able to add in any random person and have it work out the same. And most importantly, remember that your story will not always follow your plans (if you plan for your stories at all ), some of the best scenes come from spontaneous decisions. Just let the story flow from your fingertips, you might be pleasantly surprised with what happens. If you do find yourself being taken away by your characters, break into a smile, because that means you are really getting into their heads, and you are becoming an excellent writer :goodjob:


Thanks for the help everyone

Sorry, can't help with plots. Don't use 'em.

I do use a truckload of this though. :nod:

This, to the fullest degree.


You can't hope to improve your writing without a bit of reading. Similar to a handful of people on here, I also aspire to one day become a professional writer/journalist. I've always found that reading broadens my mind to try out words I've never thought to use, or processes of action I ignored before. Find an author that captures your imagination and let that be your motivation.

Another thing I'll have to add: You can't hope to improve if you have no hope in bettering yourself to begin with. Keep your mind positive and try, try, try. Hard work and committment won't go unrewarded.

I agree with everything Darkom said above, but wanted to draw on this paragraph specifically:




* Spontaneous: The most exciting stories for the reader are the ones that feel spontaneous, charged. It is hard to recreate this feeling in planning, IMHO.

Letting the story flow from your fingertips: I agree 100% - I know in my mind how I see a scene going, but when I sit down to type it out, I do a rough draft of free typing - a direct link from my imagination to my fingers, bypassing thought. Some of my strongest characters have emerged doing this. When I do stop and look at what is there, a lot of times I am totally surprised by what has developed in that typing session.

Spontaneous writing is well and good, and several things I've written, particularly combat scenes or scenes with a lot of drama, have been mostly spontaneous, but the problem a lot of people have with that is that the longer you write something spontaneously, the harder it is to keep track of what you've written.

A story is a chain of events, of actions and reactions. When you plan a story, you should already know what each major event is, and how they tie into the plot, and eventually the ending. A lot of writers I know that are spontaneous plan nothing, and so eventually a lot of what they've written gets lost and ends up looking random and out of place.

The very best writers are the ones that can plan ahead, but make everything look spontaneous and random. Take, for instance, Charles Bhepin, the writer of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/ShinjiAndWarhammer40K?from=Main.ShinjiAndWarhammer40k, one of the most successful fics on FF.net. There are people on a forum that keep track of this story and write down every single action that might have any significance at all, just because the author is so good at keeping track of his story, that even the smallest of actions can end up having consequences later down the line at an unexpected point. Nothing gets thrown away. That is the sort of author I inspire to be.

So, in my opinion, the best sort of writing is not spontaneous, but rather holds the illusion of spontaneity.

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents. Awesome job so far Darkom!

I tend to go into writing with a general overview of where I want to end up, but leave the details intentionally vague. I have a odd problem as a writer: If I pre-plan scenes and dialogue too much, I have absolutely no desire to write that scene at all. It's already "taken place" in my imagination and I don't have to drive to merely echo what I know is already going to happen.

I've read this thread through today and I truly enjoyed it. First, I want to wish Darkmon the best of success with this thread. I think what you're doing is wonderful and I hope you have the time and effort to keep it up. There's some really good tips here.

It did, however, remind me of a funny story that I read about a year ago on the Facebook account of a recent graduate of NYU's MFA program (creative writing). The story goes something like this:

So I finally finished two years of graduate study in creative writing. I went to my final interview with my academic adviser. He sat me down and asked me what I'd learned in my two years at NYU. I started to talk about themes and writing honestly and he interrupted me.

"There are only two rules of writing," he said. "The first is believe in yourself. The second is believe in your story. If you can manage those two rules, you'll soon pick up everything else you need to know."

I smiled at him. "Had you told me that when I started this program, I'd have just dropped out and saved myself $30,000 in tuition."

"I know," he said, without smiling, "that's why we save it for the end."

Very nice thread Dark, I've yet to read through all of it but it looks like you've got yourself the beginnings of a very thorough guide.

Just to add my own little piece of advice, just so that this post isn't a total waste of space:

Write where your interests lie; this doesn't just mean write about subjects that interest you, this means write about the things that are currently consuming your imagination, whether it's sci-fi, fantasy, murder mystery, your new dog... whatever. I find I don't write well unless I'm absolutely exploding with enthusiasm about a subject. Finishing things can wait, the most important part of writing for me is to make sure that what I do write is good. Admittedly, this does mean that I have more half-finished word documents on my computer than an English teacher who insists on essays being handed in the next day, but there area few real gems hidden away in there if I do say so myself.

A few thoughts.

On plotting:
Lots of people who write fan fiction just go with the flow and write what comes to them. Nothing wrong with that except when interest passes, they stop writing the story. Hence, the story is unfinished and an unfinished story is hardly a story. Even if you like to improvize (I know I do) you should do a tinge of planning just so you know where you're heading.
Sticking to your prewritten plot like a believer to a bible (no offense intended) is not what I'm recommending. You can change the outcome of your story in the middle of writing it, nothing wrong with that. If you continually feel the urge to do something different with your plot, then perhaps gripping onto your prewritten plot is not a wise idea. If that is the case, your story is trying to tell you something. All you need to do is listen to it. After all, writing is an organic process.

On characters:
Don't be afraid to kill your characters. I've read published stories where a writer simply did not want to abandon their favourite characters. They were making them invulnerable which made them unrealistic. You have to be aware of this: characters are not people. Killing, abandoning, betraying or torturing them does not mean you are a bad person. It just means you know these things happen in real life.

On planning:
When it comes to planning, you might try doing it backwards. If you want to reach a particular ending, think about what you need to do to get there. If you need a character that has particular properties, try to think of how he/she might have gotten there from being a normal, average person. Or perhaps he/she was born to this but needed time to realize that. Think of it like climbing a mountain. You know your destination: the top of the mountain. How to get there? Which trail to use?
Personally, I like to wait for my ideas to find me, then I give them order of sequence and meaning.

Thanks everyone, I truly appreciate the input I know there is a ton of talent and skill here to tap into for this guide, and I really need as much help as I can get to make it as effective as possible. I apologize for the lack of articles as of late, life's been weighing me down quite a bit lately. However, with Spring Break finally here ( :celebration: ) I should be able to post again very soon, quite possibly today or tomorrow. But first I need to do some editing in of the great advice everyone has already given


PS On a completely unrelated note, I am also planning on posting up my newest fan fiction today. I recieved some excellent proofreading reviews from BSparrow and Treydog, so as soon as I make a few more edits and get my final draft of the intro done I should be able to get it up I am rather excited, and just wanted to share with everyone that I am finally satisfied with the first chapter. I have already learned a lot from this story, and hopefully I'll be able to grow even more as I continue, jotting down all of my realizations and the good advice I recieve to use here

By the way, if anyone has any more topics they would like us to cover that are not on the list, please tell me. I'm having a bit of trouble sorting through all the various jumbled sayings and advice for writing in order to make a clear and easy to follow guide. Thanks again to everyone for helping, and a final apology for my procrastinating behavior :goodjob:

Advice on getting motivated would be nice. Sometimes it's hard to keep writing when you're doing something long like a novel, even if you love it. How to take everything you've written and continue and to build on subtle hints. Thanks

Why, thank you for the suggestion I'm sure that everyone has times when they just don't feel like writing, and while this can be a significant problem, you shouldn't worry too much about it. I'm sure we can go into more detail about such a topic later (I really need to be getting to bed right now), but I think the most important thing to keep in mind in regards to motivation is that writing should be fun.

Unless you are for some reason writing on a deadline for money, you should relax and get back to the tingle-in-your-toes days when you first started writing. Every writer will reach a point where they question why they write, whether they will ever be good enough to get published. They will look back at how far they've come, look forwards to how far they still have to go, and some will feel like they simply can't go the distance.

The same applies to a smaller scale, for just a single story. When you are still stirring the story around in your head you will inevitably get excited about it, that's why you bothered to write down the idea in the first place. Once you get past the first few chapters you'll still be pretty excited, but the initial euphoria will have dwindled. As you approach the middle of your story, that initial freshness, that feeling that your story can go anywhere and do anything, will fade away. At this point you must make a choice, and this choice largely depends on the writer: whether you want to finish your story or go astray and write a new one.

This choice depends on the writer, yes, but it also depends on how you write the story. If you stick to a rigid, linear, unchanging plot, of course you will lose interest. You need to have fun with your story, play around with your characters and your plot. No matter how serious you take your writing, you can't write your story without letting it play out a bit on its own. It's good to have a plan, it keeps you from meandering and rambling around, but you don't have to stick to that plan entirely.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that writing should be fun. Grit your teeth and set your mind on being the next Stephen King all you want, but you'll never get there if you don't enjoy it. I completely agree with Evil on this, be sure to write about things that interest you. If writing becomes boring, it is no longer a hobby, it is a chore. It can happen to the best of us, but if it does remember why you write. Your reasons are your own, and you'll have to decide for yourself if the time spent writing, planning, and editing are worth it.

Have fun :goodjob:


PS I didn't mean this to be just a Q&A for me, guys. Feel free to share your own thoughts on the matter

This is bigger than a lot of people realize. Motivation to start a story in the first place - that sometimes takes a bit of pushing. You have the ideas but are hesitant to post them - still write them out, you can read them and see how they sound to you or show them to a friend. Starting out is always the hardest thing to do. This forum is a wonderful place for someone who hasn't written before but has the love and background of the TES universe to begin. It is filled with helpful advice and support, not easy to find elsewhere.

When you are in the middle of a story sometimes that motivation can wane though. That happens a lot. A lot of times reading someone else's work can help. In a huge blank period sometimes another person's story can give you an idea of where you want to go with your own, or even just inspire ideas that were latent. I think in my worst black out Alexander's "Cyrodiil" shook me up so powerfully that I wrote for three months off the inspiration from it.

So you're saying I should post my work on here? (yes, I'm that stupid ) People would actually read it and give GOOD feedback? (Not like "oh tis sux" or "good")

Certainly you should I can't tell you about anyone else, but I know for a fact I'll give it a once over Most of the time you'll get at least a compliment and a reason for why the reader liked it, and if you're lucky a critic will drop down and give you a two page review Hopefully this forum will never see the word "sux" :goodjob:

An enlightening read all through, Darkom.
Most enjoyable.

One thing I find helpful is to remember that the creative process need not be hindered by a stringent rule that what you draft must be wholly linear. If you find yourself stuck a bit in the middle but have the absolute clarity on how you want it to end, then concentrate on what is clear. Then, when looking at what you have in hand, comes the truly creative fun and craft of getting where you left off to mesh and join with what you have finished. Morrowind itself is not a truly linear game, perse, even though time passes in our notion of linear fashion. Why insist to yourself that strict rules of creativity need apply? I am not speaking of the basic fundamentals such as those that are usually the realm of the editor. I address the creative process.

It is the same as seen in the artistic world. There are entire schools of thought that will beat into you that you must first sketch, with composition, then plan, then detail. Yet, this might not work for everyone. The famous fantasy artisans the Brothers Hildebrandt had an unusual style of them both working on a painting and meeting in the middle. Some start with a very detailed eye, and create an entire work just centered around that. Others, have started with a single color, branching outward as whatever emotion that color generated gave rise to the next and the next.

Success, in all things, as written before in the posts above can be very subjective. We all read that which we chose, and can see how there are those that are published purely because they were a person of note. Their story may have fallen flat or left one unmoved. Then, there are those that write prolifically, and you can see in the flow of the story that near the end, they tired of the work in general and shut if off with a confusing resolution. Not always, but you can see this if their breadth of work is expansive. Every now and again, there is that author that is nearly forgotten from each work to the next, because they decided that as much as they enjoy writing for notoriety, they enjoy writing for themselves more. Each work startles in its ability to entertain, and generate emotion.

It can be said the same of the writing technique. There will always be schools of thought that insist that if you are not approaching the craft with at least Strunk and White's Elements of Style; Hooper, Gale, Foote, and Griffith's Essentials of English, and a respect for those who are journeymen in the field, that you are doomed to fail. This is contrary to life of the creative person. Think, and explore all of the works that existed before those who were born to dictate to you that "you must do it this way, or suffer mediocrity", and you will find that inspiration, creativity, and the generation of stories that stir the senses have always been there. Long before there have been those to purport that creativity must adhere to their rules, there have been those who have had a story to tell and done so, achieving the result of having the story read. This isn't just the ken of the novel, but of the letter before it, and the oral story before that. It is the deep want of capturing the audience, even if it is yourself, in the imaginative world that you create.

There is a facet of writing, as well as art in general, that I find is the most wonderful yet draining part of it...to feel. Lately, especially on the Internet, I am reading camps divided on the feasibility of the writer to actually care and feel for that which is written. For me, and me alone, the characters I draft seem to those that have read them quite real when I care about them as more than pixels and bits on my screen, and more than pencil on my draft page. Most who write can "see" their story in their head playing out as a film of sorts with all the emotion, action, and visuals. The hardest part has always been to take what you see in your head, and make it make sense on the page. Sometimes, the best way to do that is to take dictation from your mind, and read it back to yourself. You can flowchart your thoughts, and this works for many. Draft the work in synopsis from beginning to end. For me, it has worked the other way, to take those images of action, dialogue, and emotion, and get them down on paper or type as soon as possible. I remember emotions generated from many of the real life instances that may tint some of the characters, and try to convey that.

Creativity is such a personal, important part of life. The quest for us all is to find the way to bring it from our hearts and minds, and place it before us tangibly. Whether it be for sharing, or for ourselves. The overall need is to find what works, personally.

On motivation
Self-motivation is linked with planning. If you plan too thoroughly, you might lose the desire to write because for you the story already happened. Why bother writing it down? The trick is to write only the outline of your story. That way you get the basic taste of the story and acquire hunger to experience the whole thing, side dishes and dessert included. I've done this with my TES fan fiction and it worked wonders.