Beginner's Guide to Writing Narratives

Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:43 pm

Beginner's Guide to Writing Narratives

Preface

This is my attempt at a beginner's guide to the fundamentals of writing, in which I hope to cover all the basics of a compelling narrative. It is my hope that it will serve a similar purpose for fan fiction that Illusionary's guide does for RPing, a place to point newer writers when they first come here, so they have something to read over and work on without any of us needing to reiterate the same point to every new story. I intend to cover a wide range of topics, starting with the simplest elements of a story to some of the problems more experienced writers face. It should not only be a place for new writers to learn, but for the skilled to brush up on some of their fundamentals.

Of course, I would never be so arrogant to think that I could accomplish such a feat on my own. I will offer my thoughts and advice on a particular topic, after which anyone can feel free give their own opinions on things that I missed or wasn't clear on. Once the newest topic is up, I will edit in the best points of everyone's advice into the single post, hopefully organizing these articles into an easy to read guide.

So, I hope to have the first article up shortly, but in the meantime here is a list of some of the topics I hope to cover:

  • http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1074182&view=findpost&p=15622022
    Series One: Elements of Writing
  • http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1074182&view=findpost&p=15661571
  • Plot (Causality vs. Coincidence, Plot Curve, Conflict)
  • Character (Characterization, Protagonist vs. Antagonist, Purpose of Characters, Flawed vs. Uber, Flat vs. Round)
  • Theme
  • Setting
    Series Two: Cover to Cover
  • Pre-Writing (Inspiration, Planning)
  • Introductions (The Hook)
  • Rising Action
  • climix
  • Conclusion
    Series Three: Narration
  • Narration
  • Description ("Show, Don't Tell", Types of Description, Scene Changes)
  • Point of View
  • Tone
  • Pacing
    Series Four: Dialogue and Miscellaneous
  • Dialogue
  • Infodumping
  • Suspense (Foreshadowing, Cliffhangers)
  • Writer's Block
  • Original Fiction (How to break away from fan fiction)
    Series Five: Style and Grammar
  • Grammar
  • Editing
  • Critiquing
    Series Six: Final Notes and Conclusion


Of course, there are bound to be more, but for now I'll settle for this. If anyone has any additions to the list, things they would like to see covered, be it specific or general, please let me know. It's not a complete guide if I leave important things out ;)

Thank you all for your help thus far, there is currently one article completed.


Also, if you are looking to expand your horizons from BGSF, or from fan fiction altogether, here are a few helpful links:

http://www.writingforums.org/index.php- A great forum for all things writing, full of wonderful people and great writers. Stories are sure to recieve criticism here, due to a two criticism minimum for posting stories.
http://s1.zetaboards.com/TESFU/index/- Not specifically a writing forum, but it is fairly active and has several helpful writers.
http://chorrol.com/fiction.html- A great site full of some of the best Tes fan fiction, along with its http://chorrol.com/forums/.
http://illusionaria.proboards.com/index.cgi- Illusionary Nothing's forum. It's mostly geared towards RPing, and it's not terribly active, but quite a few good writers can be found there.
http://www.imperial-library.info/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl- Mostly for lore buffs, but it too has a pretty good writing section.

If anyone else has suggestions for other writing sites, I'm always looking for new forums or guides. Thanks.
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Toby Green
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:36 pm

Awesome idea Darkom!
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Skivs
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:39 pm

This looks like it will be immensely interesting, as well as helpful. I always thought it odd that there was an RPing guide, but no writing guide.
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Kellymarie Heppell
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:13 pm

Haha, not even two hours in and the first article is more or less done :D This is more of an introduction to writing and general advice on how to improve than specific rules of writing. Were this not on a forum, this would be the true preface.


Part One- General Writing

Writing is an art form, a skill that anyone can learn but few ever master. It is more than just putting words on paper; good writing can reach into the reader's heart and change how they feel about life. The best authors make their characters come alive, puts their audience inside the protagonist's head.

But there is no easy road to becoming a great author, no writer ever got where they are without hard work. Just like any skill, writing takes practice and dedication. If you only write as a hobby, as something to do in your spare time, with no thought to improving yourself, then this guide is not for you. You must be ready to put in hours of practice, take brutal criticism, and always have the drive to get better.



How to Get Started

If you are completely new to writing, all the narratives you've ever written have been for your literature class, then welcome to one of the oldest and greatest intellectual pursuits of man. Furthermore, welcome to the Elder Scrolls fan fiction community, I hope you enjoy your stay here. You should find the majority of us are helpful and supportive for new writers, though don't be discouraged if your story doesn't attract a whole lot of attention.

I'm sure you are itching to put down that great idea you had for a story on paper, but don't be so anxious to start a novel length adventure across Tamriel just yet. My first bit of advice would be to start smaller, perhaps with a short story or novelette, about something that really interests you. That is a key point right there: don't write a story if you aren't absolutely ecstatic about the idea. A passing fancy isn't enough, I know the first story I wrote was bordering on obsession :P

One final note for those just starting out, if you intend to write an Elder Scrolls fan fic, I would advise looking over the lore. Not only is it vital background knowledge for your story, the entire world your story is based on, but I have found many of my best ideas nestled within the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Pageor http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showforum=16. You might also want to check out the http://www.imperial-library.info/, though it isn't as beginner friendly as the former two. A word of warning though, you might get so hooked into lore that you won't be able to put it down :D

And of course, never give up. You should always strive to improve, but remember that there is no "one way to write". Writing isn't about what a fancy judge thinks, it's about entertainment and art. Only you can decide whether or not your writing is a success; not everyone will always enjoy what you create, but the important thing is that you are enjoying it.

The pursuit of perfect fiction, even though we know it's unattainable, is a goal that is both worthy and essential to the writer looking to constantly improve.


If you wish to become a professional writer (I know I do), you must learn to enjoy the process of it. Don't grumble to yourself (or others; people hate that) you will never be good because you are not good at the moment. I would be afraid to show you my early work. And to think how I thought that stuff was ever good


Learning to write is just as much about time spent pounding at a keyboard as it is about sheer natural talent... if not more. So while learning, you should just concentrate on learning to write for its own sake. Get familiar with your style; learn how you like to build things up. Then, once you're confident in your own abilities, you can start thinking about ways to improve. Until you reach that point, just write for the fun of it, and to Oblivion with what anyone else thinks.

As a new writer, you will get a lot of conflicting advice (even in this thread!), and, frustratingly, all of it will have merit. This is because writing is one of the most subjective skills out there. There is no "right" way to do it, and everyone learns differently. Some of us learned by writing terrible self-insert fanfiction (guilty!), while others learned by writing angsty vampire-assassin stories. Some studied for months before ever typing a single word, while other started pounding at the keyboard before they even had a story idea down. The best you can do, as a new writer, is pick and choose what works best for you. Consider other viewpoints, of course, but part of learning to write is learning what works best for your own style.

Then, only once you're familiar with your own style, and only once you've built up that core of self-confidence... only then should you make your works available for critique.



How to Improve

The fastest way to improving your writing, beyond simply writing stories, is reading other's work. Whether you choose to read fan fiction or published novels, reading lets you glimpse into the minds of the greats. Learn from the best, take a page from their book (not literally), and you'll soon find yourself writing more like them. This is especially true for dialogue and description, two things that there really is no set formula for.

Learn from the masters, but don't copy them. People I look up to are Steven Pressfield for showing me how to write gripping battle scenes and George R R Martin for showing that you can indeed make a complex story in a fantasy setting. I read their books and then I went to write my own stuff. I didn't use their sentences or style in it. Rather I let their style influence mine. It's called growth.


If you can, try to break down what it is about the work that you like. Is it the way the author portrays the character? Is the narrative packed with action, or does it use a descriptive style that you really get immersed in? Learn what interests you as a reader, and then play around with producing such things in your own work.


Another thing to keep in mind with writing is that each individual writes differently. Personal style is what separates you from everyone else, so be sure to experiment and find out what works best for you. Do you prefer third or first person? Omniscient or limited? Internal dialogue (thoughts) or not? Never be afraid to try something new, because no matter what you'll learn from the experience.

There are many things to keep in mind when writing; there are so many elements of a story that it may seem daunting at first. You'll most likely have many people along the way telling you how your story is rubbish, that your plot is boring, or your characters flat. One of the most important skills a writer can posses is the ability to take criticism, no matter how poorly presented, and utilize it. Peleus gave me a very interesting quote on the subject: 'A writer must be utterly humble so they can learn new things. They must also be utterly arrogant in order to have the backbone to continue.'

Taking a critique can be one of the toughest things a writer has to learn to do, and therefore you must be positive that you're ready for it. It takes a thick skin to accept an honest critique gracefully; until you develop that skin, it can feel like the critiquer is shredding a very personal part of you (which, essentially, they are!). When I receive a tough critique on one of my works, I find it helps to step back and let myself cool off before responding. Days, even weeks, may be necessary to see honest criticism with an objective head, because you're emotionally tied to all the time and effort you put into your story the first time around.


Hopefully this guide will cover many of the things you'll encounter along your journey, but even if you are aware of them it takes months, even years, before you will be able to use them all in conjunction to make a masterpiece. Writing is a perfect example of the phrase "Nothing worth having comes easy."

There is a certain amount of talent involved in writing, some people simply aren't cut out to be writers, but the mere fact that you are reading this means that you probably have that creative spark. Everyone starts out the same, everyone was a beginner at one point, and the only thing separating them from you is years of practice and experience. There is no hidden secret to creating an amazing story, neither Tolkien nor Herbert took any short cuts, and there is no reason why any one of you couldn't make something as great. All it takes is heart; if you want that kind of skill you'll have to work for it.

If you have talent, good for you. I believe writing talent is another word for persistence. If you are good at it, you will not give up. When a person eventually succeeds, people say he/she's got talent. I imagine many people with talent quit before they get good. I don't put much stock in talent. It's just another way to flatter someone when they have already gotten good. Even if you have talent you still have some hard work to do. The big question really is: do you enjoy working hard on something? Then you have talent for it, in my opinion at least. If you truly love something, you will not quit it no matter what. Eventually you will get good in it from the shear amount of practice.

It's been a good decade since I started writing. I've put about a million words behind me now I imagine. I don't see myself as a rookie writer anymore. It doesn't mean I have nothing new to learn.

One advice: don't look for shortcuts. You may think a writing workshop will get you among the legends quickly but you are wrong. Personally, I've never been in a writing workshop. I've learned it all myself. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do a workshop if you want to. Just don't expect to become a master overnight.


Be patient- with yourself- and with your story. Learn that sometimes, the most telling moments are the ones in which "nothing happens." Physically, nothing may be happening- but spiritually, emotionally, mentally- it can be volcanic. And it is those moments that make fiction writing "real." Because, ultimately, we are telling stories about people- whether they be H. sapiens, elves, dwarves, trolls, robots, or jellyfish. So, let the story unfold in its own time. Do not feel the need to rush from one battle to another, barely pausing for breath. Because your reader needs a chance to breathe, too.


So, what are some good ways to practice writing, other than simply putting an idea down on paper? There is nothing wrong with simply writing for pleasure, but most stories don't allow you to work on some of the crucial parts of writing, due to characters, setting, etc. My advice would be to write several short stories rather than just one long novel, so you get a feel for many different types of characters, styles, and whatnot. If you always write dialogue heavy romance, why not try a suspenseful, combat filled, fast paced story? If you only write male protagonists, why not try a female? If you have only written sneaky, darker characters, try making a real good guy. Or if you always have great charismatic heroes, why not try an ordinary citizen caught up in a larger conflict? There are so many things to write about, if you limit yourself to just one of them you are truly missing out. The same can be said for just writing fan fiction, but I'll save that part for the end ;)

When experimenting, a failure is another type of success. Don't despair if your story turned into a fiasco. Learn from your mistakes. What have you done wrong? What could you have done differently? Don't constantly patch up the same old story. Rather start a new one. Sometimes you have to let the story for you start thinking of the new one. Starting a new story means more practice but you still have the insights from the old one.

My advice: go play. When a person is playing they get experience without boredom. Do what you enjoy. Then, when you've mastered the basics, you can experiment with things you haven't done yet. You have to start somewhere. Might as well be something you enjoy.



Alternatively, you can try entering contests, or use story starters. However, be careful in which contests you enter. In the words of Peleus, contests can be good for you but it can also utterly destroy you. You have some much skilled competetion that you might feel like rubbish in comparison. I myself know the feeling, it's called being overly humble.

Poetry can do wonders to improve your descriptions and tone. Heck, RPing is a great way to improve your dialogue and combat writing, though it differs from traditional writing quite a bit.

But I can't stress enough: everyone's style is their own, and the only way to find yours is to write.


Well, I should think that is enough of that, no one came here for a pep talk, though many writers could certainly use one. So, what's say we get down to the real stuff? All those elements of writing everyone is so anxious to hear about, the real nitty-gritty, as Illusionary puts it, of this guide.



A big thanks to Peleus, Sparrow, Treydog, and everyone else for their input on this article :goodjob:


EDIT: Hmm, I hope it doesn't look too much like a hodgepodge of quotes. I'll have to go back and rewrite this later to make it flow a tad better, though I might need to get rid of some of the quote tags. Regardless, thanks again everyone, the new article should be up shortly :D
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Kill Bill
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:53 pm

Great idea =D. I did this on another http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/screenwriting-storyboarding-concept-creation-291/writing-lessons-108759/ and went over a bit of what your going to go over as well. Maybe you could think about adding some stuff on editing and checking over your writing once you've finished it. I didn't go into much depth with mine but just some ideas on it in case you may miss something which I doubt of course ^_^. good luck with this.
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Lloyd Muldowney
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:43 pm

Darkom, this is wonderful and has great potential. Thank you so much for taking the lead on this! I'm not sure where, or if you may want to fit them in, but let me offer up two aspects that might be helpful to include: Editing and Research.

*

Some thoughts on editing:

I reap huge rewards from the editing process. My first draft may cover the ground I want, but is often terribly plain to read. I don't try to be overly creative in my first draft, preferring to stay focused on getting what I want converted from a mental picture to prose. For me, at least, it is the dozens of edits over days and days where I try to refine and optimize speech tags, add color to my descriptions and spark to the dialogue. I look for repetition of words or phrases to weed out or change. If I see a small paragraph that uses the word 'table', for example, three times, I fix it. As a first person writer, I look specifically for too many 'I's', particularly at the beginning of sentences. Third person writers face the same challenge with overuse of the lead character's name and he/she. Sometimes whole paragraphs get added, moved or deleted. I try to ask myself if the reactions I portray for my characters are realistic and believable, then adjust if required. Do I stay solidly within the perspective, or point of view that I have chosen?

I find the gradual process of refinement cannot be rushed. One benefit of countless edits is that I am usually able to cull out most simple grammar/spelling errors. During my latter edits, I find it worthwhile to read the story aloud, preferably to a willing victim, er, I mean listener.

*

And research. I find the comment that D.Foxy left on one of my stories to be very true:
?Remember that - Research, Imagination, and Craft. The foundation of a good story?.


If you are writing about a vampire, it helps to do some research on them, for example. So it is with any subject you expect to spend some time on. Some great resources are the stories of other writers, UESP wiki (game and lore information) and Google. Don't be afraid to consult a thesaurus to 'research' alternative words. I would be remiss not to link D.Foxy's definitive thread on how to write combat scenes:
http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1037618&hl=

*
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Samantha Jane Adams
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:37 pm

Excellent idea for a topic Darkom, and no easy task either. I applaud you! :celebration:

I echo Acadian's sentiment about editing. Even though I try to make my first draft the best it can be, it is only the beginning. After that I make another 4 drafts, one per day, looking for outright spelling and grammar mistakes, continuity issues, general improvements, etc... Before I post anything it has been through the wringer.

I also concur with your statement about experimenting. It takes a while to find your writing style, and the only way to find it is to practice and try different things. A forum like this is an excellent place for that kind of practice, as you can also receive feedback on what works and what does not.
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Josh Trembly
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:00 pm

You wanted my thoughts, Darkom, so here is my response to what you've got so far. Mostly just repeating what you and Peleus said in different words, but you might find something useful in there. :P


As far as I'm concerned, there are two major ways to generally improve your writing, before you ever submit anything to peer review, or ever even show your works to anyone.

First: practice, practice, practice.

Learning to write is just as much about time spent pounding at a keyboard as it is about sheer natural talent... if not more. So while learning, you should just concentrate on learning to write for its own sake. Get familiar with your style; learn how you like to build things up. Then, once you're confident in your own abilities, you can start thinking about ways to improve. Until you reach that point, just write for the fun of it, and to Oblivion with what anyone else thinks.

Second: read. It doesn't matter what genre, what length, what style... just read your favorite stories. If you can, try to break down what it is about the work that you like. Is it the way the author portrays the character? Is the narrative packed with action, or does it use a descriptive style that you really get immersed in? Learn what interests you as a reader, and then play around with producing such things in your own work.

Here's something that I have to disagree with Darkom on: don't work towards "perfection." Heck, I'm not even sure there is such a thing as "perfection" in writing--the word "perfection" implies that there's only one penultimate way to write, and that's just not true. The most wondrous part of writing is that there are so many ways to do it, and do it well.

Instead of striving toward perfection, simply pick the path that suits you best, and follow where it leads. Become stronger in your own personal style--better at communicating complex ideas, at pulling readers into the story, at making your world come alive--and you and others will appreciate the effort. But, perfection? No such thing.



That said, there's one more thing to keep in mind...

As a new writer, you will get a lot of conflicting advice (even in this thread!), and, frustratingly, all of it will have merit.

This is because writing is one of the most subjective skills out there. There is no "right" way to do it, and everyone learns differently. Some of us learned by writing terrible self-insert fanfiction (guilty!), while others learned by writing angsty vampire-assassin stories. Some studied for months before ever typing a single word, while other started pounding at the keyboard before they even had a story idea down. The best you can do, as a new writer, is pick and choose what works best for you. Consider other viewpoints, of course, but part of learning to write is learning what works best for your own style.

Then, only once you're familiar with your own style, and only once you've built up that core of self-confidence... only then should you make your works available for critique.



Taking a critique can be one of the toughest things a writer has to learn to do, and therefore you must be positive that you're ready for it. It takes a thick skin to accept an honest critique gracefully; until you develop that skin, it can feel like the critiquer is shredding a very personal part of you (which, essentially, they are!). When I receive a tough critique on one of my works, I find it helps to step back and let myself cool off before responding. Days, even weeks, may be necessary to see honest criticism with an objective head, because you're emotionally tied to all the time and effort you put into your story the first time around.

That said, do try to take any response you recieve here with both a grain of salt and a pinch of consideration, if that makes sense. The Elder Scrolls fanfiction forum, in particular, is known to have a good writing community, full of fellow writers who just want to see others flourish. Many put a great deal of time and effort into offering suggestions and criticisms to others' works, and it's simply common courtesy--and common sense--to consider what they have to say. Critiques are the lifesblood of an aspiring artist, because they help the artist take their art in directions that they would never have considered by themselves.

But I can't stress enough: everyone's style is their own, and the only way to find yours is to write.



That's all I have for now. I'm sure I'll have more later.
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Claire Mclaughlin
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:05 pm

But I can't stress enough: everyone's style is their own, and the only way to find yours is to write.


You can offer suggestions Darkom, but you can't teach people how to write. Everyone has their own way, no two people are the same. People must learn themselves for the large part.
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Charlie Sarson
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:32 pm

Allow me to add my thanks, Darkom. I hope that I am not jumping the gun with these comments. I know that you want to add a section on description later, but I feel that this applies to writing in general. I agree with BSparrow that there is no such thing as perfect fiction. But I think that the pursuit of perfect fiction, even though we know it's unattainable, is a goal that is both worthy and essential to the writer looking to constantly improve.

Once the advice of Darkom, Peleus, Acadian, and BSparrow has been taken to heart the aspiring writer must begin to understand the two most important tenants of quality fiction. The first of these can be expressed in three words:

SHOW DON'T TELL
If the aspiring writer learns nothing but this lesson, and applies it religiously to his/her work, then that writer will be successful at engaging an audience and forcing them to suspend disbelief (which is why we're all here). Failure to learn and apply this lesson will inevitably result in fiction that wants to be read, but can find no audience. How you as the writer choose to show us your story is a matter of personal style that can only be attained by trial and error, but by all means please don't tell us a story, SHOW us a story. There are many of us on this board who are familiar with Chekhov's advice on the subject, but I think it bears repeating here:

"Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass."

The second important tenant of quality fiction can also be summed up in three words:

ALWAYS BE SPECIFIC
Specificity in your writing puts images into the heads of your readers. Don't believe me? Close your eyes and imagine a tree. Got it? Not very clear is it? I'm sure you got a tree in there somewhere but it's kind of fuzzy around the edges. Now close your eyes and imagine a Texas Live Oak, or a California Redwood. A specific image forms in your mind, right? When you see a sign on a chain link fence that warns you to 'Beware of Dog' you give it a glance and continue past the yard. When that same sign says 'Beware of Pit Bull' your pace quickens and you move past the yard with your antennae up. Such is the case with good fiction. Specificity turns a tree into a California Redwood; it turns a dog into a Pit Bull.
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kennedy
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:02 pm

Great idea Darkom. :foodndrink:

I have always thought that a love of reading is number one. My old lady would always get upset when other people (teachers and parents) would criticize me for reading 'fantasy' when I was a kid.
"Leave him alone," she would say, "if he is enjoying it then let it be."

Years later now I understand that she was right. How easy it is kill the human spirit at the very start. My reading has matured and grown over time, but the main thing is that I did it at my own pace and never lost that love for it. I have a voracious appetite for other people's writing, perhaps even more so than writing words myself. Enjoyment comes from being outside the story and plotline and trying to guess what the author is really saying between the lines.

Only in recent time have I demanded a hard work ethic from myself. Good writing is hard, hard work over many years, but it is always enjoyable if it comes from the heart.

Darkom, are you planning to have a chapter dealing with 'writer's block?'
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Tha King o Geekz
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:31 pm

Learning how to write well.

There's a lot of different ways to learn.

I read "The Elements of Style" (Strunk & White) many, many winters ago. Many of its tenets have stuck with me since.

More recently I read Zinsser's "On Writing Well" (25th anniversary edition). It's geared more for non-fiction writing, but much of it does apply to fiction writing, especially as we do it on the fan forums.

I've read many different authors, from Tolkein, to Heinlein, to Faulkner and Steinbeck, even Homer (translated into English, of course). Tom Clancy, David Baldacci, Robert Ludlum. Anne McCaffrey, Elizabeth Moon, Anne Rice. Each author is different, each story is different. I enjoy each of them for different reasons. Some are dark, others are fun. Some are drop-dead serious, others are hilariously irreverent.

I've done free-writing exercises, mostly on my own, because I get ideas in batches, seldom one at a time. So I free type these ideas down, and start asking questions about them. Questions that lead to full-blown stories sometime during the process of answering them.

I write something, and when it's finished, I put it away. A couple of months later, a year later, even ten years later, I'll pull it out and read it again. Does it still resonate? Do I scoff at it? Is it fine as it is, worth a rewrite, or only headed for the circular file?

Recently I started visiting the fan-fic forums, and reading not only the stories, but the criticisms surrounding the stories. The criticisms actually have been much more educational than the stories themselves (though the stories tend to run to the creative, inspiring, high-quality side), because the criticisms tell me what works and doesn't work in very specific terms. These criticisms have made me think about my own writing, and in just the past couple of months I've noticed a progression in the quality of my output.

Opportunities for learning how to write exist anywhere, any time, and any how. What is needed on the part of the writer is to "Keep your eyes open and your heart true."
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Elea Rossi
 
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Post » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:42 am

Never try to make the first draft perfect. That alone can ruin your writing career.
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noa zarfati
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:25 am

This stuff is all gold so far. My attempt to contribute:

Make the audience give a damn about the characters, especially if you plan on killing that one off. If a writer makes a red shirt just because they want to have someone die, that does work to show that the person or thing that killed him/her is serious, but it doesn't make the reader's eyes go wide and have to put down the book and collect their thoughts before continuing. However, if a character means something to the other characters emotionally and has already won the hearts of the readers, then their death is not a tool but a heart-wrenching, tear-jerking tragedy.

Some examples (contains spoilers for various books/movies.shows)

Dracula the Un-Dead:
Spoiler
I had to stop when Jonothan Harker was impaled. I had to wait a few minutes because that character mattered. When the random police are murdered, it is violent and shows you how ruthless and sadistic Bathory is, but doesn't make you shake and pale.


Gurren Lagann:
Spoiler
When random Graqearl pilots are killed, you understand the seriousness, but when Kamina, Zorthe, Kidd, Iraak, Jorgen, Balinbow, Kittan, Lordgenome and Nia died, it shook audiences to the core.

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Rich O'Brien
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:27 pm

Never try to make the first draft perfect. That alone can ruin your writing career.


Agreed.

That's what editing is for. And, if you're ambitious, the second draft.

When you're just starting a story, concentrate on just getting it on paper first. Remember: you can always change and rearrange things later.

Keeping that in mind eases a lot of the pressure.
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Sophie Louise Edge
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:45 pm

I will have more later, added to this post, but I am rushed right now. I will echo a few points:

To be a better writer- READ! Read everything, read anything, read fiction, history, encyclopedias, children's books. Find the things that work for you as a reader. Look at how the writer did it. Think about why it worked. Practice those techniques. Then forget everything and find your own style.

Realize that writing is an endeavor where you don't "Get it right the first time," and then stop. It is not a math problem or a puzzle with one correct answer. That means you have to have the willingness to draft, revise, re-write, etc.- until you are sick of it- or until it sings. And you will know when it sings.

Be patient- with yourself- and with your story. Learn that sometimes, the most telling moments are the ones in which "nothing happens." Physically, nothing may be happening- but spiritually, emotionally, mentally- it can be volcanic. And it is those moments that make fiction writing "real." Because, ultimately, we are telling stories about people- whether they be H. sapiens, elves, dwarves, trolls, robots, or jellyfish. So, let the story unfold in its own time. Do not feel the need to rush from one battle to another, barely pausing for breath. Because your reader needs a chance to breathe, too.
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Dina Boudreau
 
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Post » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:34 am

Woo, got a lot to reply to. Just to let everyone know, every comment on this thread will be taken into consideration and added to the guide. But please try and keep your comments on topic. I know the topic is a little drab right now, but we'll get to the fun stuff later. If a topic you want to discuss isn't on the list right now, please bring it to my attention and we can add it. Thank you.

Excellent idea for a topic Darkom, and no easy task either. I applaud you! :celebration:

I echo Acadian's sentiment about editing. Even though I try to make my first draft the best it can be, it is only the beginning. After that I make another 4 drafts, one per day, looking for outright spelling and grammar mistakes, continuity issues, general improvements, etc... Before I post anything it has been through the wringer.

I also concur with your statement about experimenting. It takes a while to find your writing style, and the only way to find it is to practice and try different things. A forum like this is an excellent place for that kind of practice, as you can also receive feedback on what works and what does not.


Thanks Subrosa, I appreciate the input. Personally, I don't edit much unless I see something is really wrong, or if I get called out on it. Right now most of what I write is just for pleasure, no serious projects, and I don't have too much time for editing. I agree it can help, but I think if you have to choose, and your last chapter was okay, I would rather write another chapter. But of course, that's a style thing.

Indeed, style is one of the most difficult things to get about writing, and everyone's is different. I am by no means trying to impose any style on people here, only offer my own ideas on things, so people have an idea what they can try. If it doesn't work for them, they are free to try something else, and I will usually offer another alternative as well.

You wanted my thoughts, Darkom, so here is my response to what you've got so far. Mostly just repeating what you and Peleus said in different words, but you might find something useful in there. :P

Perfectly fine Sparrow, thank you very much for the advice.

As far as I'm concerned, there are two major ways to generally improve your writing, before you ever submit anything to peer review, or ever even show your works to anyone.

[Snipped a bit for space, hope you don't mind ;)]

Here's something that I have to disagree with Darkom on: don't work towards "perfection." Heck, I'm not even sure there is such a thing as "perfection" in writing--the word "perfection" implies that there's only one penultimate way to write, and that's just not true. The most wondrous part of writing is that there are so many ways to do it, and do it well.

Oh, of course, I apologize for not being clear on this. You can be good at writing, but certainly there is no such thing as perfection.

Instead of striving toward perfection, simply pick the path that suits you best, and follow where it leads. Become stronger in your own personal style--better at communicating complex ideas, at pulling readers into the story, at making your world come alive--and you and others will appreciate the effort. But, perfection? No such thing.

I agree, of course, but I also think Destri has a point. You can strive towards perfection, it's one way people get better, but at the back of your mind you should know that everyone has their own style.

That said, there's one more thing to keep in mind...

[Snipped again]

But I can't stress enough: everyone's style is their own, and the only way to find yours is to write.

Completely true, there is no one way to write. I think we can all agree that you can be good in attracting an audience and making them feel for your characters, but no one can say for certain who is best.


That's all I have for now. I'm sure I'll have more later.



You can offer suggestions Darkom, but you can't teach people how to write. Everyone has their own way, no two people are the same. People must learn themselves for the large part.


Of course, Wooly, I don't expect to teach anyone exactly how. I offer my opinions on the matter, other people contribute their own, and we put it together in a guide. Readers get to see different styles, try some out, and find what works. It's more of a way to guide them through the process. They're still learning for themselves, just with a bit of advice ;)

Allow me to add my thanks, Darkom. I hope that I am not jumping the gun with these comments. I know that you want to add a section on description later, but I feel that this applies to writing in general. I agree with BSparrow that there is no such thing as perfect fiction. But I think that the pursuit of perfect fiction, even though we know it's unattainable, is a goal that is both worthy and essential to the writer looking to constantly improve.

Once the advice of Darkom, Peleus, Acadian, and BSparrow has been taken to heart the aspiring writer must begin to understand the two most important tenants of quality fiction. The first of these can be expressed in three words:

SHOW DON'T TELL

[Snip]

ALWAYS BE SPECIFIC
[Snip]


Indeed, I couldn't have said it better Destri. I'll be sure to put these in when we get to description :P Don't worry about it, I forgot to say anything about it before.

Great idea Darkom. :foodndrink:

I have always thought that a love of reading is number one. My old lady would always get upset when other people (teachers and parents) would criticize me for reading 'fantasy' when I was a kid.
"Leave him alone," she would say, "if he is enjoying it then let it be."

[Snip]

Darkom, are you planning to have a chapter dealing with 'writer's block?'


Quite, I would never criticize anyone for their reading choice (though comic books are a bit much :P), so long as it has a plot and characters. Sure, I like some books more than others, but you need to enjoy what you're reading in order to learn from it. I can read Monte Cristo for four months and hate it (not that I did, I loved every minute), and even though it is an amazingly written book (my opinion) with great examples of literary devices I would learn nothing.

Thanks for reminding me, Wolf, I think Treydog had some good advice on writer's block. Adding to the list :D

Learning how to write well.

There's a lot of different ways to learn.

I read "The Elements of Style" (Strunk & White) many, many winters ago. Many of its tenets have stuck with me since.

[Snip]

I write something, and when it's finished, I put it away. A couple of months later, a year later, even ten years later, I'll pull it out and read it again. Does it still resonate? Do I scoff at it? Is it fine as it is, worth a rewrite, or only headed for the circular file?

Recently I started visiting the fan-fic forums, and reading not only the stories, but the criticisms surrounding the stories. The criticisms actually have been much more educational than the stories themselves (though the stories tend to run to the creative, inspiring, high-quality side), because the criticisms tell me what works and doesn't work in very specific terms. These criticisms have made me think about my own writing, and in just the past couple of months I've noticed a progression in the quality of my output.

[Snip]


Indeed, looking back on my first story here, I can hardly believe what I wrote. Though I am a relatively inexperienced writer, I probably only have half a dozen decent sized (over ten thousand words) stories under my belt, none of them finished.

I absolutely love the criticisms here; I don't know why more people don't give them. They're great fun, and you learn a lot giving them. That's the only reason I know half of what I do, seeing it in other peoples' critiques and trying to explain it myself, ending up researching it. A good way to learn, not to mention a fun way to pass the time.

This stuff is all gold so far. My attempt to contribute:

[Snipped]


I'll be sure to use these in the characterization part, I very much agree that characters must be built up depending on their purpose. No reason wasting words on someone that'll disappear without much of an impact when you have a main character about to die. Of course, I'd give a two or three main character maximum on killing, it gets tedious after a while.


I will have more later, added to this post, but I am rushed right now. I will echo a few points:

[Snipped]

Be patient- with yourself- and with your story. Learn that sometimes, the most telling moments are the ones in which "nothing happens." Physically, nothing may be happening- but spiritually, emotionally, mentally- it can be volcanic. And it is those moments that make fiction writing "real." Because, ultimately, we are telling stories about people- whether they be H. sapiens, elves, dwarves, trolls, robots, or jellyfish. So, let the story unfold in its own time. Do not feel the need to rush from one battle to another, barely pausing for breath. Because your reader needs a chance to breathe, too.


Agreed on all accounts. The action scenes are, in my opinion, some of the most boring of a story. Action should only be used when absolutely necessary, and only for the use of characterization. They are called character driven stories for a reason ;)

Thanks everyone, I'll be sure to update the guide soon, and perhaps a new article over the weekend :goodjob:
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Jordyn Youngman
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:39 pm

Part Two- Elements of Writing

In the last article I mentioned how many different facets and elements there were to writing a good story. Many of these I want to cover in depth later, but right now I wanted to talk about a few things that every story needs to have. I'm going to lightly go over the five major elements of fiction: plot, character, theme, setting, and style. These are the generally agreed upon five overreaching categories that elements of writing go into, and any story that doesn't have all of them clearly defined is rather poorly off.

Plot
You hear a lot about plot, but in essence the plot of the story is just all of the events that take place within that story. Everything from a character dying to an argument between two people are events within a story, and all work towards the main plot (or at least they should). The best way to explain plot is through use of the http://www.d.umn.edu/~moor0145/plot%20diagram%20jpg%20for%20web.jpg, that triangle-like graph that every event in a story falls into.

At the beginning of the plot curve is the exposition- the introduction of the story. In the exposition a writer should introduce the character and setting of a story, ending the introduction with the first glimpse of the conflict that starts the rising action. I'll cover the introduction more in depth later, but for now suffice to say that there are thousands of ways to go about introducing these three things, all of which have their own strengths and weaknesses.

After the conflict is introduced and the introduction is over, we come to the largest portion of the story, the rising action. The rising action comprises all events leading up to the climix, and forms the meat of the characterization and suspense. Within the rising action you must get the reader familiar with the characters while explaining or advancing the plot.


The rising action is, as you mentioned, by far the longest part, because the growing tension generated by the conflict is what makes the narrative so interesting. If the story is longer than a chapter or two, there will even be a couple gradations in tension... some quieter periods in the middle of the rising action, both giving readers a break after one high-tension part, and making the next build of tension all the more dramatic in comparison.


Now for the biggest moment of the story, the turning point or climix that all the rising action was leading up to. The climix doesn't have to be a big fight scene, or a ground breaking realization for the character, it simply needs to convey a change within the conflict. If the protagonist (main character) was chasing the antagonist (bad guy) through the whole rising action, the climix is when the protagonist catches him.

After the climix comes the falling action; basically just showing the results of the climix and its impact on the characters and leading up to the conclusion. If the protagonist killed the antagonist in the climix, the falling action would be everything after the moment the antagonist is dead. Usually the conflict is nearing resolution here, and the writer only needs to tie up a few loose ends, particularly in mysteries.

Finally we have the conclusion or resolution. This is usually the shortest part of the story, and sometimes it doesn't even happen. The writer should return the protagonist to a normal life, with the conflict resolved, to give a feeling of finality and completion. Of course, it is perfectly alright to end right after the climix, with no real conclusion, especially in a series of stories. Once again, that is a personal choice for the writer.

As I end the subject of plot, let me touch up on something I mentioned but never fully explained: the conflict. The conflict is simply the opposing force between the protagonist and antagonist. The conflict can be anything, from an interplay between two characters (bad guy vs. good guy, Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader) to an internal conflict, happening within the protagonist, usually due to a moral dilemma. Conflicts can take just about any form, but without conflict the plot becomes boring very rather quickly.

Character
Character describes every person within a story, specifically the protagonist, antagonist, and the supporting characters. As with plot and introductions, I'll go into more detail about all the types of character later, but for now another brief overview should suffice.

The protagonist is the main character of the story. This doesn't mean that it is the point of view the writer uses, or even the strongest or most likeable character. The defining part of the protagonist is that they change and are most characterized throughout the story, though the protagonist is usually also the main or focal character. The main character simply means that the conflict revolves around them (they are the focal point of the conflict), and is the opposing force to the antagonist.

The antagonist is any person or force that acts against the protagonist, usually exemplified by one person. This does not mean that the antagonist must be evil; it simply means that they are going against the protagonist. Likewise, a protagonist can be a bad guy, though usually the protagonist must gain the empathy of the audience, therefore if they start killing people they lose empathy fast ;) However, it has been done, though it is not recommended for newer writers (I know I tried to make a serial killer protagonist once; didn't work out)

Supporting characters can be just as important as the main ones, but for the most part are just used to characterize the protagonist or move the plot forwards. Unlike the protagonist the supporting characters are usually flat, not having had much characterization, and rarely change their ways or views. Which means that the protagonist must be round (having a full and realistic personality) and is usually a very realistic person, as opposed to being an archetype (stereotype).

Theme
The theme of the story is the unifying idea or moral of a story. It is usually a message felt throughout the story, though it need not be explicitly stated. The simplest example of theme is the moral at the end of children's fairy tales, meant to teach a lesson. It can be about anything: love, life, peace, faith, etc., though it doesn't necessarily have to be something deep and philosophical. Regardless, every story should try to at least have some theme, even if the only intention of the writer is to entertain.

Setting
The setting of a story is fairly simple: the time, place, culture, and so on that the story takes place in. This can be central to the conflict, or just something to give the readers an idea of where the story takes place. The setting can refer to something general and vague, like "In the state of Georgia, half way through February, Darkom was sitting at his computer typing a writing guide" or something more specific, like the descriptions of the scene, "It was a dark and stormy night, and little Billy was wide awake in his bedroom". Basically setting is everything you describe in a story apart from the characters or action.

Style
Style is probably the vaguest and far reaching of the literary components and most of what it includes will also be covered later in the guide. The point of view, method of description, tone, grammar and syntax, etc. all fall under the umbrella of style; basically everything that isn't quite large enough for its own category.

The point of view is simple- basically whether you are writing in first or third person (there are others, but these are the most common). Each has its advantages and disadvantages, and, like most things in style, it is up to the writer's style (go figure).

Description is one of the most finicky things in writing, but also one of the most important. Good description can make or break a story, and it is everywhere. This is way too huge to go into detail here, but remember that the most important thing about it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show,_don%27t_tell.

Tone, or mood, is how the story reads- what kind of attitude the writer portrays. It goes a long way towards characterization, and shouldn't be underestimated in its importance. The tone can be serious, cheerful, and even angry; it is mostly use to convey the narrator's current state of mind (how the protagonist is feeling).

Grammar and syntax is how you literally write the story. There's really no way to improve your grammar other than reading and writing, and it is one of the most widely varying things between different authors.


So, that is a brief overview of just about everything this guide will be covering in the future. Once again, any comments or suggestions are welcome, I know I can't give a full picture of these things all on my own :D
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KiiSsez jdgaf Benzler
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:15 pm

Something I can add is that concerning plot, another way to envision it is through the three act story, which has been the cornerstone of Western storytelling since the Ancient Greeks. Basically a story can be broken up into three parts. Introduction, conflict, resolution. The introduction introduces the main characters and their motivations. The conflict is whatever is in the way of them reaching their goals. The resolution is when they meet their goals (or fail so completely that they can never reach them - either way, it is done). If you look at the original Star Wars trilogy, each movie can be seen as one of these acts: A New Hope introduces us to the main characters of the arc, Empire Strikes Back puts them through the wringer, Return of the Jedi ends the story (although leaves plenty of room for new stories). You also see the same formula very plainly in every romantic comedy ever made. Girl meets guy (or girl) and thinks he/she is great, things fall apart and everyone is miserable, and finally somehow they get back together and live happily ever after. It is the same thing you were describing, only in simpler terms.

When it comes to plot, plausibility is important. The events that happen need to arise in a reasonable fashion, not because the writer said so. The game Oblivion is filled with the latter, and clumsily shoehorns the player into many of the quests. Like Jauffre telling the player to go find Martin and bring him back. Yeah, right. Or the Fingers of the Mountain quest, where Earana wants the player to go fetch her book. There is no reason for her not to do it herself, there is nothing guarding it after all, and she is a far more advanced magician than you are if she can actually use it. Etc... The more realistic your plot is, the more the reader will be drawn into your story. When you try to shoehorn it, it completely destroys the suspension of disbelief on the part of the reader, because they know real people would never do those things.

When it comes to Setting, when you are writing ES fan fic it is a good idea to do your best to absorb as much as you can about the setting of the game. Not just names and places and events, but more importantly the things you see and hear in everyday life. Work those into your writing, so say that someone is very "down to nirn" rather than "down to earth". I loved this reference to conjuring Acadian made recently: "I had been up late making potions and conjuring a course of action". This one I did the other week seemed to work well also: "Ardaline's features darkened like a storm front rolling across the Niben. " These are small touches of flavor, but they pull the reader into the setting. The opposite also happens, with things contrary to the setting breaking the reader's suspension of disbelief. For example, one of the big blunders I see in the game and some fan fic is to have the characters say things like "Go to hell!" The problem is that hell does not exist in the ES universe, so the word would never be used by anyone in speech. You might as well have characters say that something is "smaller than a microchip", or is "loud as a cannon", or "hotter than a laser".

I can see that you are going to make a deeper dive into Point of View, so I will not say anything about head-hopping here.
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Catharine Krupinski
 
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Post » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:41 am

When it comes to Setting, when you are writing ES fan fic it is a good idea to do your best to absorb as much as you can about the setting of the game. Not just names and places and events, but more importantly the things you see and hear in everyday life. Work those into your writing, so say that someone is very "down to nirn" rather than "down to earth". I loved this reference to conjuring Acadian made recently: "I had been up late making potions and conjuring a course of action". This one I did the other week seemed to work well also: "Ardaline's features darkened like a storm front rolling across the Niben. " These are small touches of flavor, but they pull the reader into the setting. The opposite also happens, with things contrary to the setting breaking the reader's suspension of disbelief. For example, one of the big blunders I see in the game and some fan fic is to have the characters say things like "Go to hell!" The problem is that hell does not exist in the ES universe, so the word would never be used by anyone in speech. You might as well have characters say that something is "smaller than a microchip", or is "loud as a cannon", or "hotter than a laser".

I can see that you are going to make a deeper dive into Point of View, so I will not say anything about head-hopping here.



This can be subjective, because sometimes statements like "down to nirn" can sound contrived rather than natural. I think it is more important for your characters to come across as natural. As an active critic on many threads, you have pushed writers many times (myself included) to "break away from the linear game mode and create your own world for your story" - which you do very well in your own story all the time, and quite successfully.

I have seen many excellent writers on this forum have a term slip into their stories that isn't exactly Lore, but still works naturally into the story - and would prefer to see that (than a veiled attempt at creating setting by throwing a word from Lore in).

My suggestion would be if you can do this and have it sound natural, then it is a great addition. Say it aloud and listen to how it sounds. I try and go by what I have heard NPC's say things in the game too, to get a feel of how they would say something. Sometimes these types of things work, and sometimes they just don't sit as well as the natural responses would.

Regarding Hell in Elder Scrolls Lore, it most certainly is. There are characters in Oblivion that say the word Hell, referring to the Oblivion gates. Also, in earlier Lore - A quote from "The Five Songs of King Wulfharth" :

"Then Vehk the Devil blasted the Ash King into Hell and it was over. Later, Kyne lifted the ashes of the ashes of Ysmir into the sky, saving him from Hell and showing her sons the color of blood when it is brought by betrayal. And the Nords will never trust another Devil again."

From "The Story Of Redguard" :

Cyrus: Where the hell is my sister?
Yaeli: And who the hell are you?
Cyrus: I need to know who I need to beat the hell out of.


When in doubt I always check the Lore, or Lorca1 who is a Lore fanatic (when available).
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Czar Kahchi
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:53 pm

It's difficult to comment when you're just doing overview posts, while promising to elaborate on everything later... so I won't comment on that one. Not until you do the in-depth posts, anyway. :P

But there is one thing: I find that plot diagram to be misleading. It seems to imply that the rising and falling action are the same length. I've always prefered diagrams more like http://www.d.umn.edu/~moor0145/plot%20diagram%20jpg%20for%20web.jpg, or, better yet (if it's a longer story), http://teachers.henrico.k12.va.us/staffdev/woodward_t/images/plot_diagram.jpg. (note: these are external links, and are therefore unlikely to remain up in the future).

The rising action is, as you mentioned, by far the longest part, because the growing tension generated by the conflict is what makes the narrative so interesting. If the story is longer than a chapter or two, there will even be a couple gradations in tension... some quieter periods in the middle of the rising action, both giving readers a break after one high-tension part, and making the next build of tension all the more dramatic in comparison.

There are, as always, exceptions to every single element of style that anyone could ever lay out. I've read some books where the events weren't in chronological order, and others that the climix was revealed at the beginning, and then the rest of the story was the rising action written in backwards chronological order. I've read books that had no structure at all. But such techniques are probably best kept for more experienced writers. The plot diagram is a good rule of thumb until one is skilled enough to overcome it.
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Davorah Katz
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:51 pm

It seems to imply that the rising and falling action are the same length. I've always prefered diagrams more like http://www.d.umn.edu/~moor0145/plot%20diagram%20jpg%20for%20web.jpg, or, better yet (if it's a longer story), http://teachers.henrico.k12.va.us/staffdev/woodward_t/images/plot_diagram.jpg. (note: these are external links, and are therefore unlikely to remain up in the future).

The rising action is, as you mentioned, by far the longest part, because the growing tension generated by the conflict is what makes the narrative so interesting.



Eh, don't they teach that in High School English classes these days?
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matt oneil
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:15 pm

Regarding Hell in Elder Scrolls Lore, it most certainly is. There are characters in Oblivion that say the word Hell, referring to the Oblivion gates. Also, in earlier Lore - A quote from The Five Songs of King Wulfharth:

"Then Vehk the Devil blasted the Ash King into Hell and it was over. Later, Kyne lifted the ashes of the ashes of Ysmir into the sky, saving him from Hell and showing her sons the color of blood when it is brought by betrayal. And the Nords will never trust another Devil again."

When in doubt I always check the Lore, or Lorca1 who is a Lore fanatic (when available).


Yes, it is used figuratively by characters in speech. But it does not exist anywhere in the ES universe to begin with. There is no Heaven or Hell in ES. There is Mundus, there is the Aetherius, there are Daedric planes, there is the Dreamsleeve. No Hell. So no character would ever be saying it to begin with. It is one of many examples of what is simply poor writing on the part of Bethesda. It is like someone saying "Wow, that guy is faster than a jet airplane!", or "That guy hits like a freight train!" or "Umbacano has more money than Fort Knox!"
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Tracey Duncan
 
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Post » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:23 pm

When it comes to Setting, when you are writing ES fan fic it is a good idea to do your best to absorb as much as you can about the setting of the game. Not just names and places and events, but more importantly the things you see and hear in everyday life. Work those into your writing, so say that someone is very "down to nirn" rather than "down to earth". I loved this reference to conjuring Acadian made recently: "I had been up late making potions and conjuring a course of action". This one I did the other week seemed to work well also: "Ardaline's features darkened like a storm front rolling across the Niben. " These are small touches of flavor, but they pull the reader into the setting. The opposite also happens, with things contrary to the setting breaking the reader's suspension of disbelief. For example, one of the big blunders I see in the game and some fan fic is to have the characters say things like "Go to hell!" The problem is that hell does not exist in the ES universe, so the word would never be used by anyone in speech. You might as well have characters say that something is "smaller than a microchip", or is "loud as a cannon", or "hotter than a laser".
This can be subjective, because sometimes statements like "down to nirn" can sound contrived rather than natural. I think it is more important for your characters to come across as natural. As an active critic on many threads, you have pushed writers many times (myself included) to "break away from the linear game mode and create your own world for your story" - which you do very well in your own story all the time, and quite successfully.

I have seen many excellent writers on this forum have a term slip into their stories that isn't exactly Lore, but still works naturally into the story - and would prefer to see that (than a veiled attempt at creating setting by throwing a word from Lore in).

My suggestion would be if you can do this and have it sound natural, then it is a great addition. Say it aloud and listen to how it sounds. I try and go by what I have heard NPC's say things in the game too, to get a feel of how they would say something. Sometimes these types of things work, and sometimes they just don't sit as well as the natural responses would.

Regarding Hell in Elder Scrolls Lore, it most certainly is. There are characters in Oblivion that say the word Hell, referring to the Oblivion gates. Also, in earlier Lore - A quote from "The Five Songs of King Wulfharth" :

"Then Vehk the Devil blasted the Ash King into Hell and it was over. Later, Kyne lifted the ashes of the ashes of Ysmir into the sky, saving him from Hell and showing her sons the color of blood when it is brought by betrayal. And the Nords will never trust another Devil again."

From "The Story Of Redguard" :

Cyrus: Where the hell is my sister?
Yaeli: And who the hell are you?
Cyrus: I need to know who I need to beat the hell out of.

When in doubt I always check the Lore, or Lorca1 who is a Lore fanatic (when available).
Malx1 is right. Hell exists in TES lore and the daedra are demons.

The reason why is because every culture has a different take on the daedra. We as players have access to tons of information that the characters wouldn't. Religion under the Eight calls the daedra Demons, and calls them evil, so the people believe it. If you have a character from a different religion, they might call them something different. There are of course dozens of references to these in assorted lore books.

It is improper, though common, to refer to the denizens of the dimension of Oblivion as demons. This practice must probably dates to the Alessian Doctrines of the prophet Marukh which, rather amusingly, forbade traffic with "daimons," and then neglected to explain what demons are. It is most probable that "daimon" is a mispelling of "daedra," the old Elvish word for the strange, powerful creatures of uncertain motivation who come from the dimension of Oblivion.
This quote from On Oblivion means that unless your character in your story has inside knowledge of the daedra, they should normally call them demons from hell.
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Stephanie I
 
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Post » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:56 am

Malx1 is right. Hell exists in TES lore and the daedra are demons.


No, hell does not exist in TES lore. Figurative speech refers to it in TES lore. Likewise with demons. There is a big difference between figurative speech and real places where people can go. I never said people did not make figurative references to hell in the lore books. In fact, I pointed out that they did. What I said was that they should not, because it does not exist as a real place in the TES universe. Just like Elysium does not exist there. Or Valhalla. Or any other Otherworld's that only exist in real world religions.

Just because Bethesda was sloppy in their writing does not mean we have to be as well. That is the whole point of what I am saying. We do not have to make the same mistakes the game designers did. This whole topic is supposed to be about improving your writing, not continuing someone else's mistakes.
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Amy Gibson
 
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