The cosmology says that TES is different, not completely, but different. Why the insistence that TES must be completely the same?

So, what, you won't be happy until MK or Tedders comes and says that its fact? Everything is an in-universe claim.

It was dark out in the deadlands...

Baan Dar wasn't a real moon, it's just a hunk of rock that was thrown at Vivec. Just look at it, you can't even see it from the other side of the city, what kind of heavenly body is it that it can float above a city without completely blotting out the sky?

:turtle:

No, I haven't quoted any lore found in text. Not everything is in writing.


Really? I don't see any convincing proof otherwise.


It has a few fundamental differences, but also many fundamental similarities.


Again, not the exact same, but similar in many, many ways. Oh, and it also has humans in it. What I find is hilarious is how fiercely people oppose anything related to reality while defending an in-universe non-canon text as their bible.


The second part is more of a theory. And good job using unsources speculation yourself. Which includes the unsources speculation within sources.


I didn't say completely the same, I oppose the idea that it's completely like in Cosmology.


No, I'll be satisfied when I find a more informed source than the Temple Zero Society. But even then nothing is certain, and that's fine with me.


That's not what Cosmology said.

Both of you are thinking of Baar Dau, the rock Vehk stopped. Baan Dar is something different.



I implore you to elaborate.

I wonder how would you explain that moons are half spheres by gravitational theory?

Dang, I'll give you that.


Using a text written by the Temple Zero Society as fact. And even then, assuming that the writers sources what they said when they wrote it. And recognizing its existence in TES just because MK wrote it.


Simple, they aren't half-spheres. They're tidally locked, always the same face looking down at Tamriel. And in the latest installment of TES, they didn't go transparent.

Unsourced speculation is speculation...that is unsourced. I clearly did not do this because of the fact that I used a source.

MK is involved with the development of the TES lore. I apologize for using this obvious piece of information to assume that his lore contributions are incredibly valid

Using the source is one thing. Using it as something more than a text regarding the Imperial view of the cosmos is speculation. But I was more talking about you saying that the Shivering Isles aren't on a planet.

As for MK, William Shatner was involved with Star Trek, and when he wrote books about Star Trek, they were non-canon. Why is it different for MK?

I was gonna say that lore states that realms in Oblivion are in Oblivion and not on planets, but seeing as you like to not believe lore, I'm just going to sit here and enjoy the hilarity of this discussion.

And from what I understand, William Shatner wasn't involved in creating the universe and lore of Star Trek besides acting.

Did William Shatner come up with the vast majority of the Star Trek mythos? That's why...

Why? The technology for finding extrasolar planets is far beyond what the people of Tamriel had, even the Dwemer would have had a hard time doing it We didn't confirm them until 1988. And they would be out there, in the void of Oblivion. And it'd explain how not only gravity (notwithstanding it was the same as Nirn's, but that's game mechanics) existed on them. And how they could have the oceans.


He was James Kirk. That's pretty significant.

But... it isn't space out there, not like Space in Real Life. The Aubris is a giant wheel, and there are spokes and stuff, like in Vivec's Teachings and other in-game texts, like the Monomyth and stuff.

SI is Sheogorath's realm in Oblivion, the spaces between the spokes. They are plane[t]s --- but not necessarily round due to gravity and crap. They are the Daedric Princes. If a prince wanted his realm to be a torus, I'm sure that's what mortals and lesser daedra would experience it as.

It's Oblivion that's out there, and most of it is said to be a void, which is http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore%3a%50ocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Arena_Supermundus. In this case, I do somewhat support some of the cosmological teachings in Tamriel, as it still fits to what I theorize.


A spiral galaxy has spokes...

Supposedly the Daedra princes may have conquered their domains. Jyggalag did say that he had been expanding his realm before he got cursed. But when Sheogorath turned into Jyggalag, the entire realm didn't mutate with him, not until they're conquered by Order. And while the Tree of Madness does seem to give some power to Sheogorath, it seems that the princes shape the realms that they control.

I think you need to read http://imperial-library.info/fsg/prowelerarticle1.shtml. Before you ask it's sourced herp derp.

The void of Oblivion isn't just plain void, it's the magical embodiment of Padomay. It's magical

LMAO!!!!

No it's not. If you didn't create any of the lore or mythos, your creative input on it means jack crap, in terms of expanding upon it. You yourself even said the novels were non canon. From what I understand, MK was involved in creating the lore in the TES universe a great bit.

I don't get it, can you recap what you are theorizing?

Besides, the word "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coterminous" implies to me less of a "daedric planes are isolated, finite balls of matter in a vast oceanic void" and more "they are alternate dimensions/planes that are but a step (and a magic portal) away."

To me, it seems less that there is actual spacial distance between the plane[t]s... more that you need to move sideways through dimensions to reach it. Like how Nightcrawler sidesteps into that alternate dimension in order to bamf. When you don't have a destination in mind, you kind of fall through the cracks into the infinite void?

EDIT: additionally, the coterminous lends greater importance to the Towers, which prevent Nirn getting disintegrating.

No, if he was Gene Roddenberry, then it'd be pretty significant...

Edit:

We also didn't have astronauts during the medieval era and aren't capable of teleporting to the moon. Their magic puts them way ahead of our present-day technology in terms of interstellar exploration...

Have you even looked at a Dwemer Orrery? There is no way in Oblivion those bodies are following Kepler's, Newton's, or Einstein's laws. The ecliptic plane is totally skewed. Some bodies orbit on bizarre epicycles centered on Nirn's axis, but not on Nirn. And that is the results of Dwemer observations.

I kind of understand what you're trying to do, Crimson. But in the real world, current scientific theory displaced old myths through rigorous observation and incredibly detailed mathmatical anolysis. Even Aristarchus, the first recorded as having proposed a heliocentric model of the solar system, had a physical model that provided an elegant explanation for phenemona that puzzled others of his age, even if it didn't catch on at the time.

There are only two sources of information for us in Tamriel: in-game documents, and the game itself. You appear to be drawing from the game itself. So far you've cited Things Going Down, Seasons, lunar cycles, twenty-four hour days, the existence of air, the existence of a sun, PLANTS, the existence of a number of other planets equal to the number of other planets in our own solar system (assuming an increasingly discredited traditional classification system), and imaginative groupings of starts. You then suppose two assumptions:

1. There are likely to be errors in the current cosmological model. I have no problem with this. I think it likely, myself.

2. The progress of knowledge will inevitably follow the same path as in the real world, and what is true about cosmology in the real world is true in the Mundus (and perhaps beyond). This I take massive exception to. In a world where wizards throw fire from their hands, gods walk the earth regularly, time is highly mutable (this one alone ought to give you the idea that Einstein's model of spacetime isn't entirely correct), people and objects have the ability to move from place to place without crossing the intervening space, and so on. This I find highly questionable. To wit:

1. Gravity. There have been, throughout history, various explanations as to why some things go down (like rocks), while other things go up (like smoke). Tamriel is a world in which many mythological concepts are demonstrably true; why should Kepler, Newton, or Einstein have the last word on the explanation? So far as I can tell, Dwemer models of the immediate area (the only rigorous models I am aware of) are very different from what any theory of gravity would predict, and the main keystone of gravitational theory is that heavenly bodies behave according to the same rules as other bodies here on earth... a revolutionary idea at the time it was proposed.

2. Seasons. Seasons could be the result of axial tilt. It could also be the result of a fertility goddess going to visit the death god, or Kynarth having a case of bipolar disorder, or anything, really. You need more evidence than the mere existence of seasonal cycles to propose axial tilt.

3. Lunar Cycles. This should be the clearest evidence that something is different here from the real world, since documents propose that one can see THROUGH the part of the moon that is merely darkened here on earth--the shape actually changes--and actual visual inspection of the moons confirms this.

4. Twenty-four hour days. This is obvious to someone who actually knows what an "hour" is. An "hour" is not strictly a unit of time, but rather a unit of angle, specifically 1/12 of a circle. Same with minutes and seconds; our usage of them as time units comes from the fact that the earth is spherical. Of course, modern usage shoehorns this into a more precise timekeeping system by defining it according to a particular number of ticks on a nuclear clock (making a day not precisely twenty-four hours), but ANY world in which the word "hour" is used will have twenty-four of them in a day.

5. Climate: I do hope you're not citing my own climate change theory. My theory is intended to explain why the lore (Cyrodil was a jungle when Tiber Septim walked the earth) and the actual game (Oblivion) differ. My objection to "Talos did it" is not truly lore based, but rather literary: my retcon feels plausible and natural to me, whereas MK's retcon feels like a really bad case of deus ex machina. Never mind the Dwemer actually did build such a thing; I'm referring to the bad storytelling technique, not the wonderfully insane nature of Elder Scrolls lore. In other words, I support my theory not because it is more likely to be true (this is fiction; truth is entirely malleable), but because I like it better.

6. Zodiac: In the real world, the division of the skies into pictures is entirely the result of imagination and convenience, and is entirely arbitrary (unless, of course, you actually believe the orientation of the stars is the result of men being immortalized in the heavens and such). It is possible that there are personal and social cycles that coincide with certain celestial cycles. The same could be the case in Tamriel. Of course, what this has to do with the application of real world astrophysics to that of Nirn, I have no idea.

7. Atmosphere: What is known about the atmosphere? Yes, it's breathable. So what? Does it get thinner with altitude? Where's your proof? Does it gradually thin out the further you get from Nirn? How can one know? What is the nature of the space beyond? Who can say? Who is Kynareth?

Basically that Nirn is a planet, Oblivion is outer space, and the Daedric planes are located on conquered and shaped extrasolar planets, each orbiting a star therefore having access to magic.


It is said that when you're looking at the night sky, you're looking at Oblivion. Another thing is that even in the realms of Oblivion, magic exists, so there's still a connection to Aetherius.





Yet the daedra still needed Sigil Towers to connect the Deadlands with Tamriel when most of the Towers were down.


Nirn has a curve. It seemingly orbits Magnus as the moons orbit Nirn.


And they need to provide more evidence than the mere existence of in-universe teachings.


Only in Morrowind, I don't think it does that in TES IV.


Don't forget that there are the same number of "days" in their "year" and even the same months, just with different names.


But what came first, the constellations or the signs? Did the myth cause it to come true or did they draw up the constellations to match the stars?

Of course they did and you can see that unless you are blind. And it is also mentioned in the literature.
The information your theory is based on are non existent in TES lore and you are making them up or they are totally wrong.

I thought the expanded Oblivion storyline indicates that William Shatner organized the Mythic Dawn in an attempt to assassinate his sworn enemy, Patrick Stewart?

I restate my answer:





Actually no, they don't. They are simply transmitting that which was determined by others that came before them. That is the very nature of scholastic work. You are proposing something new. You must provide proof, and you have failed to do so. All you've said is "we can believe whatever we want", which is completely obvious, and also completely irrelevant. I can believe the moon is actually made of cheese if I want to. But if I come here with neither sources to cite nor evidence to present, what do I have? No more than you do.

There is NOTHING, NOTHING in the way of phenomena that your model explains. You are doing nothing more than they are, except your model is imported from the real world, whereas theirs is from the in-game world.

MK was still acting outside of Bethesda when he wrote the texts. That's little more than fan fiction.


Hmm, it looks like they do. However, I also noticed that the fading of the moons is independent of their phases.


The others that came before them certainly didn't determine much, it doesn't have any proof to begin with.


Let's see what it explains:

Why there's a sun in the Shivering Isles and why it harms vampires like Magnus does
Why the Shivering Isles have intelligent native mortal life.
Why Nirn's gravity is noticeably less than that of earth (this is not only evident in the physics, but in the sheer weight that can be carried).
How Oblivion can have both the vast void and inhabitable locations.
Why the stars are of varying colors
How Daedra Princes can gain or lose territory

If actually being the creator of some of the lore of a universe does not give you the right and ability to add onto this lore, then it's illogical to say canon even exists within the universe for anyone would be able to jump up and be able to add to it. More and more we disprove the validity of your logic.

And please explain to me how Daedric princes can gain and lose territory. Don't cite the Shivering Isles incident: Sheog is technically Jyg via the Enantiomorph.

Crimson, being able to see the sun from both Mundus and Oblivion doesn't really prove anything. Mundus is in the center (its what things revolve around, not the sun) and its surrounded by Oblivion, which is in turn surrounded by Aetherius. The sun is a big hole into Aetherius, so naturally you'd be able to see it from both Mundus and Oblivion, which are both basically inside the bubble which Aetherius surrounds. No matter where you are in a bubble you're going to be able to see a hole that goes to the outside, and regardless of where you are in the bubble if that hole moves its going to look like you're rotating around it (or that its rotating around you, which is the case here).

How does it explain this? We don't even really know why the sun hurts vampires, it might be a false correlation. Besides, in both cases that is Magnus, as I've stated above.

Different types of magic? We know the stars have different qualities given that the different birthsigns do different things.

:turtle:

MK was acting through Bethesda when he wrote most of the lore in the games. That's the difference. TES is Bethesda's, not MK's.


I wasn't talking about the whole morphing thing, I'm talking about what Jyggalag said in his post-defeat monologue, that his "dominion expanded across the seas of Oblivion with each passing era" back before he got cursed. In addition, Haskill implies that there are wars fought in Oblivion, although more specific information is lacking.