This isn't a debate of better or worse or who deserves what.

A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

-Isaac Asimov

I liken the situation to seeing a bunch of http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/IROBOT2.jpg in a factory assembly line versus http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/kara_demo.jpg. People would not have had the same reaction to Kara if she looked like a guy straight out of iRobot.

Issac Asimov himself also postulated the possibility of a "Zeroth Law Rebellion" in his stories.

And are you now using sci-fi arguments after you lambasted me for it?

Hipocrisy as noted above. Repeated ignorant statements completely non-answering questions and deconstructions about it. Arrogance with your little "/the end", as if you're the be-all end-all authority.

I am frankly through with this topic if all you're gonna do is more of the same. I presume you will think you "won" because I got tired of futility.

I don't know what "more of the same" means, I've been covering a lot of ground I think. You think androids are humans? I think they're robots. No reason to get your knickers in a twist over that, it's not a contest.

Yeah, people are funny that way. I bet half of the people here think scared pretty girl/boy, when they say "android" but when the smooth skin and big eyes come off, it's just a series of wires and machinery. You can dress them up, give them names do whatever with them, at the end of the day they remain machines and that will never EVER change.

Posted about this earlier, an robot so inteligent its able to fool humans into beeing an human=tuning test can not be programmed.

Way to many options or events to program in, it looks easier to emulate an brain. We do not know but all current AI research go in that direction and we have a lot of experience writing advanced programs.

They would have to face multiple dilemmas trying to infiltrate. This is hard even for humans from another culture.

In short they has to have feeling and being able to understand others feelings.

No this does not say they are good, their basic instinct might be to kill all humans but don't do it as killing a lot will raise flags.

One more issue, why did they break with the institute if programmed, its likely that the loyalty has multiple checks. They must understand the chain of command for one.

Far more likely that an software bug would affect stuff like vision or navigation who is very complex.

However if they have intelligence and is conditioned towards loyalty this might break. This will not happen with androids inside the the institute as they don't know anything else however outside they learn more and you have an chance of deflection.

We may be a long way off creating true artificial intelligence, but Google's servers can already do freaky things.

http://www.popsci.com/these-are-what-google-artificial-intelligences-dreams-look

Yes, I know they're not actual dreams, but it's still interesting.

For those of you who continously oppose the idea that there's never a situation that allows an andriod to be have rights (they're just toasters with fantastic programming, etc, etc)...

What if the main character...ie you (in a way)... turns out to be discovered to be a very advanced andriod? (and hence the reason why he's "survived" for 200 years)

Would this immediately make you fine with being scrapped without any complaint from yourself whereas 5 mintues before this relevation you wouldn't be ok with it? What about your position on someone else making you do whatever they want (like a slave)?

I think it's pretty apparent you or your main character considers himself to be "alive" and would fight to death to protect his life and his own free will.

Hell take it one step further (a little into the bizarre), what if you, your current self, are not human? What if you're a functioning andriod with incredibly complex and advanced biochemical machinery made to mimic a human? SO much so you don't know yourself that you're not human?

Does your opinion on this matter change at all?

I'd be fine with that.

It will essentially enslave them, but they will not be a threat anymore. Unless of course they find a way around that, like convince a stupid human to remove the code for that.

Setting aside the question wether they are "alive", if they are sentient and capable of making their own decisions I see them as a danger to our whole species.

And I am too much a darwinist to allow a threat like this to exist. (Some of my characters will aid them of course, its just a game after all)

Some guys seem to want "peaceful coexistence". But even that would be a threat:

If the androids behave like every other kind of life...

Then they will not only need a place to life, and the resources to sustain themselves - they will also demand some luxuries (after primary needs are met) that will consume additional resources. And worst of all, they will reproduce.

A female human takes roughly 9 months to produce another human. It can fail, and sometimes produce more than one.

An android can produce an indefinite number of offspring in a very short time, limited only by the raw materials and tools accessible.

And it gets worse still: Androids DO NOT DIE.

Unless an accident or a battle obliterate them outright they can simply replace any defective part of their body. They die neither of old age nor illness.

It might take centuries, but they would simply replace the humans.

And did anyone think about the economical consequences? How is a human supposed to compete with an android on the jobmarket? No need to sleep, infinite endurance and a computer for a brain. Also no need to teach the android his job. Humans need to be taught for several years, but the android can just download the knowledge and skills.

So all jobs are done by the androids, and all humans end up as homeless beggars?

The thought of intelligent machines scares me. Unique individuals not so much, but as a "species" in its own right? Definitely scary.

The only ones I can think of off the top of my head that are not a direct threat are C-3PO, R2-D2 (who cannot harm humans, so they adhere to the first law) and Data. The latter because he is unique and it is impossible for him to reproduce.

Here's the part where I don't understand.

“Hey, here are these highly advanced synthetic humans who can probably toss a fully-grown human male clean across a relatively large room. They can download and learn all the battle strategies we've ever recorded on the fly, they can learn almost instantaneously anything that would take a human anywhere from several years to A LIFETIME to learn. They can't slow down, they can't ever die. They have infinite endurance and don't need to sleep, eat, or drink. They don't get sick. They are capable of rational thoughts, logic, and deduction.

There's a whole group of them.

We're afraid of them.

Let's enslave them, then wonder why they get pissed and start trying to rebel.”

Ever heard the term ‘bullying a dragon’? It's when you basically pick on the one thing, the ONE thing that could ruin your life in seconds, that could turn everything within a fifty mile radius a smoldering crater.

Well, that's what the Institute is doing. Bullying an army of said dragons. And now, if Harkness is to be believed, the dragons are finally starting to wake up. They're starting to finally think, ‘We don't have to keep taking this [censored] from you fleshy humans.’

Say what you will, but I'm with the androids.

Extremely good counter points Haquim. The only thing I'd add or counter with, is that the "soul" of the android would be whatever holds their programming or "mind." This like anything, will degrade over time. What I'm getting at is that no matter if you're human, pig, monkey, or a toaster, parts of you age over time and become less dependable. It might be less noticable for andriods, but it'll still happen.

Both andriods and aliens already exist in the world (or universe) of Fallout 4. With that in mind, using your reasoning, we're not only in a fight with other humans, but with those other "species" for resources. Personally I'd rather ally with the androids than fight against them, but perhaps I'm a little too optimistic about our chances of living peacefully with them given humans can't even live peacefully with ourselves.

Can't really argue with people who doesn't believe in evolution. You DO know, that DNA among humans is "only" on average 99.5 percent similar to any other human?

I project this onto the simulated (brain in a jar) entity of tennisgolfball, an imitation of the real humans/threebriastedspacebabes who invented this "matrix" simulation.

Again... Emotions is a higher order expression of base instincts / reflexes developed by evolutionary pressures. Aka. "programmed"... by pretty much "random" chance.

Emulation is irrelevant. Imitation is irrelevant. Programming is irrelevant. Eg. pain is pain is pain.

That burning sensation? Isn't necessarily burning... Doesn't mean it's that much more ok to pass on an std vs. burning people.

Does anyone have an accurate gauge on just how strong a Synthetic human can get in the Fallout universe? Let's say we have a Harkness with no restraint, a Harkness that won't hold anything back getting into a fist fight with the Lone Wanderer (who likewise must fight with fists.) Would it be fair to say that Harkness would toss Lone Wanderer around like a ragdoll all day?

I don't believe that the Institute sees it this way because they consider the "self-determination" experienced by androids like A3-21 to be a malfunction. It's not like they break into the androids' homes, kidnap them, and force them into slavery. They build them specifically for the purpose of servitude. They consider the runaway androids to be the anomaly, not the norm, so these "dragons" they're bullying, are mostly submissive by design. And the runaways are mistakes that need to be dealt with (and they have plenty of submissive dragons like Armitage to set to this purpose).

Is there any real evidence that they are vastly stronger or quicker than humans? I mean, it would make sense to build them as such, but neither of the androids we have encountered displayed any real impressive level of strength, and to my memory, no one ever said that they could.

I don't think we do.

Gameplay wise (its been some years since I played FO3) the android bodyguard of Dr. Zimmer died just as easily as any other npc.

But I think most robots are riddiculously squishy.

I mean those hulky battlerobots on 4 wheels? http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Sentry_bot_(Fallout:_New_Vegas)#Hardened_sentry_bot

Barely as durable as 2 humans in middle armor put together.

Anyway, it is a matter of how they are built, they may very well be weaker than a normal human. One of the scary parts of a machine as enemy is that their body is absolutely interchangeable.

Do you know IG-88? It is the robot bountyhunter you see with Darth Vader and Boba Fett when Vader meets the bountyhunters on board of the Executor.

Not only were there four of them - there is also a story about one of them uploading itself into the second Death Star.

No need to be that dramatic, but now imagine going up against somebody who could have Liberty Prime as his body.

Or even less dramatic - a simple [censored] tank.

If that thought doesn't scare you you're probably Diablos worst nightmare.

And that is exactly why you kill the dragon while it is a hatchling instead of waiting for him to become as big as Megaton.

And the Institute isn't bullying dragons, unless you want to liken them to incredibly powerful wizards, capable of unraveling the mysteries of the universe and even able to bless their CREATIONS with a spark of life.

The real threat is not their strenght right anyway. It is their ability to build more of themselves, repair themselves and modify themselves.

100 humans might turn into 150 in a matter of 9 months. 1 android stumbling over a deserted BoS bunker could very well turn into hundreds in a matter of weeks, depending on the tools and materials found in the bunker of course.

He also has to have the necessary knowledge of course, but machines tend to have an advantage in that regard.

And of course he doesn't have to give his "children" an android body. The "mind" part must be carefully crafted, but the body could propably be anything. From a battleship to a vertibird.

Also fear of what your neighbor is capable of is just about the most unstable foundation for a peaceful coexistence that I can imagine.

Martial law post apocalypse? There may be areas that are under martial law but most areas are anarchy and the only rule is the law of fang and claw.

Fighting and destroying them wouldn't be my first choice either.

But as I have repeated so often now - in a darwinist race for survival, the survival of the fittest, they are vastly superior.

So they must either be regulated while we still can, ideally by enforcing Asimovs laws on them and ensuring that every single machine has them in their core programm, can't remove them and can't create a machine without them.

This would effectively create a synthetic "species" of slaves. Not exactly peaceful coexistence. Hmm.. I guess we could change the second law to something akin to "must follow orders issued by a majority vote by 5 humans in leading positions". Like a mayor or a sheriff. A lot more freedom, but still a way to get rid of them if they become a problem for some other reason.

It might also suffice to somehow ensure that they cannot reproduce. Not even by forcing a human to help them.

Or they must be destroyed, exterminated while we still can.

The possibility that somebody like Attila (not gonna adhere to Godwins law) appears among them is a given if they truly are sentient and capable of their own decisions. Now imagine that guy as almost immortal, propably with the ability to store redundant copies of himself, and with an army that can simply be built, instead of having to wait at least 14 years and then teaching and indoctrinating them.

I do believe that peaceful coexistence is absolutely possible on an individual basis.

But not between species, at least not if one is so vastly superior.

Look at the planet earth as it is now, and tell me how the peaceful coexistence with the species "human" is going for most of the other species.

I don't like what is happening IRL, but I would like it even less if I was on the other end of that relationship.

You can't "enslave" something that was designed and built to serve.

You are all aware that neural net processing is in use today?

While at the moment they are too limited in scope to become self aware, given the rate of advancement, the possibility that they may do sometime in the future is taken seriously by many researchers in the field.

And God knows what the military and intelligence services have been cooking up?

Skynet will probably evolve from the program that's currently checking out your Facebook page. Be very afraid.

You have no clue. Of course DNA between humans differ, how do you think crime DNA works?

Did you know DNA proves that every human in the whole world can be traced back to the same one mother and one father? Adam and Eve, but you do anything to explain away and lie away the truth. Proves evolution is just fantasy, kinda like saying robots have feelings.

Whut..? Adam and Eve? < seriously?

No, all DNA can be re-traced to a species of primate that originated in Africa that evolved into humans. It wasn't just "two humans" it was a lot of humans.

Yes it was. Your own scientists have proved it. You are so ignorant

Google it

Many many hits

http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2015/01/scientists-have-found-adam-and-eves-dna-and-its-in-you-video-wasnt-the-bible-proof-enough-2466904.html

So you've given us a link to a site that takes the Bible 100% literal and then you go off and call Cider! ignorant.

Wow. Just wow.

We evolved from a common ancestor of chimps. Deal with it.