OK this makes my head hurt.

Advice given but not followed.

A developer of Wrye Mash not knowing how to update the saves in mash.

Not trying to be rude here - but can you guys see how confusing it is to try and pick up modding this game?

Sorry. I am revising for exams, so really shouldn't be procrastinating on the forums and I couldn't remember what the menu item you had to use was. My brain is also fudge atm. After checking in the readme you see this: http://wryemusings.com/Wrye%20Mash.html#AddingRemovingModsFromaSaveGame

If you are using Morrowind Code Patch, it shouldn't be a problem though. You wouldn't need to do it

Yes.

But with a decent merge objects program that just works, a few bug fixes to tes3cmd it should end up being easier.

Although personally, I think Mash's UI is terrible in some ways (it is fine once you know it, but it isn't intuitive and designed with a new user). Hummm. My todo list grows ever longer

Basically, Morrowind needs one wrapper tool (Maybe one tool and MGE). Off the top of my head:

• Mash needs a wizard for patching the exe, so exeopt and the code patch are integrated.
  
• Mash needs icons. A better UI. Something that I can look at and go "ah. I understand what to do. Maybe tomorrow I will get round to reading the manual"
  
• Bugs need pulling out of tes3cmd and maybe a better mash integration (IMHO it is Ok at present, but it could be better).
  
• Mlox needs to be integrated better into Mash
  
• Mash needs a better UI.

I'm not against replicating a feature, I just have issues trying to find enough information of what it's effects should be. Besides, writing it all in C has a lot of overhead.

I'll be rebuilding SmartMerger almost from scratch soon using DMD D; which should help immensely once I finish brushing on on the language again. Probably start that in a month depending on how busy I am playing 'Fallout 3 New Vegas'.

Really makes me wish they would take a month and fix a bunch of the bugs in Morrowind.

Just duplicate TESTool merge objects functionality without the buffer overflow crash, you will make people happy.

Yes. At least, without MCP you should try changing loaded mods, not their relative loading order.
Now with MCP it should be a little less risky, but saved games can still lose track of references and CTD if you change loading order, so better still don't do it.
It is easy enough with Mash keeping mod timestamps, when you want to delete a mod instead replace it with another one (better do it using Mash updaters anyway) or with a "dummy" one (there is a bunch of dummy mods in Mash Mopy\Extras folder); when you add a new one, add it to the bottom of the list or replace another one keeping the relative order.
Well, if being obliged to assimilate Mash documentation can be considered killing fun, you may have a point here.
[EDIT]typos

>Rules 2 is because TESTool can supposedly cause NPC health to be set to 0. So open up that merged objects file with an editor and examine the NPC's hp after you are done or don't merge NPC's.

I saw this happen with "imperial archer". Somehow "Auto-Calculate" gets turned off and all stats (Strength, Endurance, etc.) are set to 0 so the guy has 0 health and dies instantly.
Somehow MPP 1.65b and MCA - Guards Patch.esp combine to cause this outcome.
When I go to "Fort Moonmoth" there are a few of these imperial archer bodies littering the castle walls.

Looking through my Merged_Objects.esp, which involves hundreds of mods, I see only a few NPC's with this zero-health problem:
-miron garer
-Laurina Maria
-imperial archer

This advice is scaring me off.

Say I use MCP (who doesn't) and I do update saves with Mash (a given to me) - you are saying that it is still best never to remove a mod during a play-through and if you do to then replace the plugin with another so that the rest maintain their relative load order? Is this why lock times was invented? That doesn't seem to jive with the convention in Morrowind modding where updates are given entirely new names (like version numbers).

No plug and play as you go? This advice seems harsh (info not the giver). I would take it as rote that one should remash lists and remerge objects after each mod shuffle? Thinking on - is the advice to not remerge objects after that is done once too. Or if new merged objects needed then a new merge file? What about for updates.

If all this is what is being suggested to me then what makes Oblivion different? With it you can take mods out and as long as you rebash your patch and don't save near the content being removed you are likely to be just fine. I've had Oblivion games where I've literally cycled through hundreds of mods (updates for certain, but also testing out and removing many many mods).

This needs to be spelled out (I mean word for word) for those (like me) who are coming from Oblivion (or any of the newer Bethesda games). I'm not seeing this advice in other threads/tutorials (or am I blind).

[edit]
This thread is helping me understand merging objects, but not how one goes about building a working load order and following the contradictory advice of:
1. Try to never remove mods.
2. Make sure to test all mods.
That would mean thousands of test saves and constantly starting over.

So what is the advice for building a working load order then?

Attempting a more complete information (but note that most of my information is about 2 years old):

Background: Your savegame consists of lots of references (i.e. things in the gameworld) that have changed during the course of your game. Each of these references is stored with a) the number of the mod it's from, b ) the number of the original reference within the mod, and c) the complete data of the reference (location in the gameworld, changed variables, etc.). So, if the mod "New Challenge" places a Daedroth in Seyda Neen, and "New Challenge" is the 6th mod in your load order, and the Daedroth is the 13th reference specified in this mod, and you kill the Daedroth and then save the game, then your save game contains the information "6 13 (complete data of the Daedroth, including that it's dead)".

Obviously, this leads to problems when the load order changes, because then "New Challenge" isn't the 6th mod anymore.

Morrowind, without the MCP, makes some effort to rematch the info from the savegame to the correct mods if the load order has changed. It can usually handle mods that are _added_ to the load order, but it has a lot of difficulties when mods are removed from the load order. In the example above, if you removed the 4th mod from your load order, so that "New Challenges" suddenly becomes mod number 5, then Morrowind would usually be unable to match the saved reference of the dead Daedroth to the correct original reference in the mod. It might either discard the saved data, or match it to the wrong original reference. This has the potential to create huge problems (when the saved data is applied to references it wasn't meant for), hence (before Wrye Mash, and before the MCP) there was the recommendation to never remove mods.

Wrye Mash can update the savegame to match a new load order. In the example above, Mash would recognize that the mod no. 6 (in the savegame) has become mod no. 5 (in the new load order). Mash would then change all references in the savegame that point to mod no. 6, to point to mod no. 5 instead. As a result, Morrowind can load this savegame without problems.

The MCP solves this problem by comparing the load order in the savegame with the new current lorad order, and re-match references according to the names of the mods they point to. Hence, as long as "New Challenge" keeps the same name, the MCP should always be able to match the reference correctly, no matter how many mods you add or remove before it in the load order. (Note: abot's post seems to indicate that the MCP can sometimes lose a reference under these circumstances. I don't think it does, and have removed massive mods during the testing of the MCP without problems, but I may have something, and abot's word is usually very reliable.)

One thing that the MCP cannot handle is _updating_ mods. Updating mods may change the order of referneces within the mod, so (in our example) the Daedroth might be reference no 15 in the updated mod, and reference no 13 might now be a plate leaning against Arille's shop. When Morrowind (with or without the MCP) now loads the savegame, it thinks that the saved data from the Daedroth (reference no 13 in the old version of the mod) belongs to the plate (reference no 13 in the new version of the mod). Hence, Morrowind will apply the saved Daedroth data to the plate (with potentially bad consequences), and the Daedroth will still be alive in the game (because the info that it has been killed isn't read correctly from the savegame). However, you _can_ use Wrye Mash to update mods. Wrye Mash will compare the old version of the mod with the new version, and try to match references between them. This process is a bit complicated, but it's explained well in Mash's documentation.


After changing your load order, you should re-merge your objects. Otherwise, if you removed a mod, unwanted residual data of the removed mod may still be present in the merged objects. Or, if you added a mod, its changes to some objects may be lost if you don't re-merge the objects.


I'm not seeing the contradiction. When I test a mod, I make a backup of my Data Files folder and of my last savegame, then I install the mod, test it (which may involve updating the savegame), and either keep it, or delete the Data Files and changed savegames and restore them from my backup.

The contradiction is only there if you expect to be able to add and remove mods without making backups of your data. That is never a good idea though, not even with Oblivion. While Oblivion is somewhat more robust with regard to load order changes than un-MCP'ed Morrowind, you'll still accumulate unused files in your Data Files, and may have overwritten files you wanted to keep.

That said, I actually _don't_ test out new mods (or only rarely), to me it's more fun to be surprised by their content, and extensive testing spoils the surprise. However, I wouldn't recommend this approach to anyone without good experience of editing savegames, since it has a high potential of causing trouble sooner or later

yeah modding this game is so so frustrating. I have never managed to complete a playthrough with a modded morrowind (if one does ever really 'finish' morrowind), because no matter how much I fiddle with programs and load orders and read endless forum posts and tutorials, even if I think it is going to work, it eventually starts CTDing every ten minutes. -_-

Now I just stick to using very few mods. At the mo I'm only using GCD, Tamriel rebuilt, Lokken Mountain, and Rise of house Telvanni. I've tried my best to sort the load order with mlox, and I've tried not to use anything that would obviously need merging (i hope - mods with lots of added creatures and npcs are what I avoid but I don't really know what the hell I'm doing so I might be wrong). I'm still not too hopeful though, and am anticipating the inevitable crashes that will blight my game :sadvaultboy:

Well, it's definitely possible to run with lots of mods. I've logged several hundred hours of playtime into my last character, with about 450 mods in the setup, and added or removed mods (even massive ones) several times.

However, it admittedly isn't always smooth sailing, and sometimes a day that I wanted to spend playing ... was instead spent hunting bugs, solving problems, and cleaning up.

Make a back-up of the data folder? OMG how archaic.

Errr - that is what http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/ is for. It will auto-juggle install order and in fact treat install order of all mods like a load order that itself can be adjusted.

With BAIN one can uninstall their entire modded content and it will save the order in which it was installed if I want to reinstall all or part of my install it will automate all the over and underwrites for each mod.

So handling data files other than plugins is much easier with BAIN than with that format (actually it makes handling plugins amazing too). So that issue is nailed down as I see it. (unless I'm missing a point)

This though:

What I seem to be hearing is that not only is the load order of the plugins important, but so is the place holder if each plugin. So if I use say these three plugins:
Mod of Blight greatneess.esp
Mod of quest lameness.esp
Mod of cool landscapes.esp
then I decide that the mod of quest lameness is, as the name implies, lame and I take it out - if I don't put another esp in is placeholder it could mess up references from the remaining mods?

Morrowind code patch supposedly allows this? Does it do so automatically or do I have to run the patch again?

the question is will these three things (MCP, Remerge Objects with TESTool, Remerge Lists with Wrye Mash) make the simple removal of Mod of lameness.esp without a replacement placeholder esp possible? I would think it automatic that one would update merged lists (PetrusOctavianus once said that rebuilding bashed patch was as habitual as breathing), and now I understand to remerge objects with each change.

If so then why oh why would anyone post any advice to the contrary of this (such as never remove mods)? Why not give the most updated advice?

If not then I'm fast losing interest in trying morrowind again, because that is lame and svcks. This absolutely is not the case with Oblivion - mods can change their load order and their place in the load order and not break the game at all (just be sure to rebuild the bashed patch). The only time I've experienced reference jumbling with Oblivion is when you install a merged mod that contains a mod already in play. I suppose if you don't clean save when a mod author tells you to that also would be an issue.

Those who don't know me well on this specific forum can be guaranteed one thing from my experience with modding - if something can go wrong for my install it will. I've learned through modding the other bethesda games that mods must be tested. You could do fine with your game until you run across the problem area. That is not the time to start thinking about being prepared.