Sorry, I'm sure this has been discussed at length but I had trouble finding a summary of the latest knowledge.

Is it better to use Testool or SmartMerger to merge objects?
Should objects from Creatures X not be merged?
Should objects from Darknut Greater Dwemer Ruins not be merged?
Are there any other mods for which objects shouldn't be merged?
Is it better to take only a small number of mods and merge objects from them to get specific results, or to merge objects for *everything* and be done with it?

AFAIK you should only use TESTools if you want to merged objects, but I can't say if should or not using SmartMerger. I suggest that you shouldn't merge objects from any mod unless it's advised in the readme, but I do know that Darknut's GDR mod is already cleaned and shouldn't be touched at all.

>I do know that Darknut's GDR mod is already cleaned and shouldn't be touched at all

But cleaning is totally different from merging objects, right?
Is there a known problem that occurs when merging DN_GDR objects, or is it merely superstition?

Yes cleaning is different than merging. Darknut has stated that you should NOT merge GDR.


Don't you mean "should merge"

It's always good to merge objects for all mods, unless the ReadMe says that you shouldn't. Merging objects ensures that different mods affecting the same object work together.

Here are a couple of helpful links.



http://www.yacoby.net/es/forum/12/9197901228156260.html

and

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:TESTool

-Joel

It depends on what mods you are using and the size of your load order. Merging objects can potentially give you some undesirable results. I happen to have a load order that results in close to 3000 saved merges and a good amount of undesirables are in there. Grouping my mods into separate merges was too much of a hassle for my tastes and easily results in wanted merges being left out. I found the best way to get around any unwanted merges is to make an "after merged objects" patch by going through the log, targeting them, fixing them with something like Enchanted Editor and adding them to the patch. Now, for the most part I just have to run merged objects once, when adding or removing the occasional mod, my patch(es) take care of the rest and I never run into annoying results while playing.

Anytime I add a new mod I run a requisite "single versus" scan against my load order with TESPCD which tells me how it will fit into everything. Also, if you have a large merged objects file, Notepad's search function (or whatever program you use) is particularly helpful for quickly finding the new mod's entries for review in TESTool's log.

If you don't mind running into obnoxious results in game, or would just rather deal with them as they show up, then the above method might seem like too much initial work. Its a matter of preference.

Edit: I would take the "Mods That Should Not Be Merged" section of that wiki link with a grain of salt. Its pretty dated and seems to mention cleaning and merging as if they were the same thing. And for instance it recommends excluding balancing mods when in actuality there is often good reason to include balancing mods in merged objects.

I've tried TESame (TESTool not so much), that's why I'm building SmartMerger . Theoretically Smartmerger should do all the proper merging you need. However at present that's not entirely accurate. There's a few bugs both in MW and SmartMerger. There's also fields and data in the ESM/ESP files that aren't documented and you must figure it out by trial and error. (Some of this is quite infuriating too. ).

Probably the best things for merging are:

• Patches & fixes (To their respective masters)
  
• Tweaks & GMST changes
  
• Weapon/Armor mods
  
• New Rooms & Objects/Items & Statics
  
• Class & Birthsigns
  
• Mods that don't other plugins or masters
  
• New Dialog topics or changed Dialog (No new entries)

Things probably not to merge.

• Land mods (Changing land and pathgrids, or moving the whole thing)
  
• Total conversions
  
• Script modifications
  
• New continents
  
• Changed Rooms (May cause duplicates with objects in savegames)

I'm sure the list is a bit larger on both. If you plan on merging mods I suggest doing it before you plan to make use of them, (At least if there's new objects in cells). Merging can break savegames. Make backups of your saves and plugins just in case the worst should happen (or you overwrite by accident).

Sorry for reviving this thread but I think this is a pretty important topic.

I have a question:
Will Merged_Objects.esp contain levelled lists within it?
I'm worried that when "tes3cmd multipatch" merges levelled lists and that any additional levelled lists stored in Merged_Objects.will be not only useless, but harmful.

FWIW I can use TESTool to create Merged_Objects.esp involving ALL of my mods at once (about 254 esm/esps). The only exceptions are:
1. My giant LGNPC ESP (combined in TESCS) causes a crash and must be excluded
2. DN_GDRv1.esp causes a crash and must be excluded
3. mlox warns you that Creatures.esp should be excluded
4. I don't think it makes any sense to include multipatch.esp

No, Merged Objects merges objects. TesTool will create a separate .esp for merged lists.

Yeah, the main benefit of Tes3cmd's multipatch is that not only does it merge leveled lists (and correctly) but also fixes fog bugged cells, persisitant summoned creatures, and conflicting cell names (say a newer mod changes a named cell to a unnamed cell). I normally use the multipatch for merged list and Testool's "merged objects" for objects.

If you use Testool for merged lists, you have to also run Horatios Leveled List Resequencer since Testool doesn't merge the list in proper order.

[ :nerd: ] Ackshully, it's aerelorn's levelled list resequencer, Horatio made the first Morrowind levelled list merging program [/ :nerd: ]

HAHA, got me ...been so long since I've used it that I forgot the difference. :whistling:

Wow so much I have to learn yet.

I'm spoiled by Wrye Bash as an Oblivion player.

I saw this thread and was hoping to see recommendations for Smart Merger, but no tes3cmd instead. That seems way complicated. Then there is this:

So all that seems less complicated than making a series of mergers? Ugh

I wonder if bat files can be used to automate the merging of objects tes3cmd - like has been done with cleaning?

I need help with this concept. Are there any easy answers (or guides)?

Probably not less complicated but for the goal I wanted my method worked best for me.


There use to be a good guide for TESTool and merging objects in one of the two links (I think it was Yacoby's Load Order Tutorial) in the Basic Knowledge/Load Order section of this http://www.mwmythicmods.com/starting.htm#conc, but the links seem to no longer work. :confused: Maybe someone else has a link to a good guide.

I'd recommend just running TESTool's merged objects function on your load list and check out the log. A lot of it is intuitive. See what kind of results you get and go from there.

I'm not really afraid of tools per se - it is just that coming from an Oblivion background - I'm frustrated with tools being recommended then others are quick to post (as I read the archives here) that such and such tool has issues or incomplete (just read above).

It's not like this with Oblivion. The tools there seem to be under constant development and issues are addressed. With Morrowind it is so much more piecemeal - use this function on this program and that function on that program and avoid functions on others. And tools are left unfinished - - gah!

More complicated - but not in a fun way.

So why not start with Smart Merger or tes3cmd now and do my save game files good and develop better habits now?

I will have a large load order.

Heh, yeah, TESTool is one of those. The main thing with it is don't under any circumstances use the "Just Fix It" feature.
As for the Merged Objects function, it won't change or alter any of your mods. All it does is create a Merged Objects esp and creates a log of the most recent function used. So its safe to mess around with.

Yeah but is that merged objects esp safe on the save game file?
To change it often?
The size of it?
TESTool version versus the other two options being mentioned?

I'm going through the work to make sure that I'm using the latest cleaning procedures with tes3cmd and re-packaging the mods for BAIN - I'd hate to then be all half-ass with the merged objects esp.

Thinking about it - merging objects is not an issue with Oblivion, but it seems there is some issues with it in regard to Fallout3 and the Wrye Flash program for it has not only a leveled list feature (like mash and bash) but also a FormID merging function (and even tags for mods that need it).

I read above about some mods not ok to merge and think how great it would be if this feature were in Wrye Mash and be able to have tags that if put on a mod would then ignore the plugin when creating merged list - without having to deactivate it.

But then that would mean having mash tags for wrye mash too.

Yeah this part is not at all fun or easy to follow.

You can't merge objects with tes3cmd

Era Scarecrow doesn't seem interested in replicating TESTool's Merge Objects functionality into Smart Merger, preferring to concentrate on merging whole plugins.

There was an attempt, called esper, at replicating the Merge Objects functionality but it never got to stage where it was ready for prime time use.

Really, TESTool is it at the moment. In fact, it is and always has been the only option.

There just aren't that many active developers in the Morrowind community

[Edit: Oh and it's always best practice not to change mods in a current game. If you have to then ensure you use Wrye Mash. Ensure the mod checkboxes are green and the savegame checkboxes purple]

OK thanks - I didn't realize that Smart Merger was for entire mods.

and reviewing http://code.google.com/p/mlox/wiki/Tes3cmd - it seems more focused on merging lists.

Is there any notes in mlox or any other tool that lets you know what esp should not be merged (objects wise) - or is it literally on a mod by mod RTFM basis?

It is on a todo list when I get board of Mash. Maybe. (Unless anyone else gets there first).

I don't think there is some list that is going to tell you the right perfect way to do this because it is very subjective. Here is what I do:

1. Run everything through Conflict Detector
2. Decide what I want
3. Merge with TESTool

My main rules:

1. *Scripts always win*
2. Be careful merging NPCs

Rule 1 means that if any object has a script on it from a mod that I know I want then that mod goes unmerged and I put that mod towards the bottom of my load order to make sure it overwrites all the other little mods. The reason is that the community seems unsure about how TESTool handles merged objects that have scripts on them. Who cares if Monster A has 5 more Hp or whatever when I need to make sure that the script on that monster is working 100%. It's not worth the risk/effort to go through and test it.

Rules 2 is because TESTool can supposedly cause NPC health to be set to 0. So open up that merged objects file with an editor and examine the NPC's hp after you are done or don't merge NPC's.

So what do you merge then? It's really simple, as an example if you have Sword A in one mod and Sword A (2) in another mod and you want the changes from both mods than you merge. Or lets say two mods put important quest items on the same NPC. Well, you need to merge that NPC. I personally think most of the time you can get away with not merging objects. Most mods are built in a way that changes as few stock objects and NPCs as possible. But those are the types of things you need to keep an eye on. Especially that NPC example where if that NPC doesn't have the quest item needed for the mod it could break the quest line.

Also, as you become more advanced and depending on how complex your load list is you may find it necessary to go in and modify or remove things from your merged objects file.

This is all much easier when you understand your mod load order and what exactly you are doing to your game. You have to be one with your load list. Make it a part of who you are and then you too can merge objects like a pro.

Where something's noted in a mod's readme or from a creditable / verifiable source it gets put into mlox when we get round to looking at the plugin or it gets reported. The latter is mainly reports via the mlox thread.

I believe what we have in mlox is the current state of knowledge about what should be included from the Merge Objects function. There aren't many.
Present company excluded, of course. *Looks for doff cap emoticon*

Just saw this edit.

So can I assume this is a good idea for noobs who are tool ignorant?

Not change mods during a game? However would one build a mod catalog and be able to know first hand what mods work and what mods do not? Even the best of examinations for conflicts (using tools at that) one is still likely to miss something and not see the problem until they're character is right on top of it in the game. How could one manage a load order of 100+ without at times having to take out mods? What about updates? Even if one were examining mods for conflicts - they are using tools and therefore would know about Mash and updating mods to masters and syncing saves (you'd think).

My questions were not - 'how do I merge objects - I've never done it before." The questions were - what is the latest info about it and are there any guides to something besides TESTool.

Are you suggesting that most here do not change their load orders for the length of entire games? Seems that would kill the fun of modding a game.

Well I can't speak for anyone else but I'm appalling at following my own advice.

You can do it with Wrye Mash fine though. You have to do something to the save (god knows what. It probably says in the readme)