Best Quest System?

Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:32 am

This is talking about guilds, rather than MQs or freelance work.

In the TES series, we've seen two widely different quest systems. In Daggerfall, we had randomly generated errands. In Oblivion, we had involved, fairly linear storylines. Morrowind was a sort of blend of the two.

I enjoyed the Daggerfall quests because they gave you a sense of actually being a member of the guild. They had jobs that needed to be done, and they needed someone to do them. A lot of your jobs would even be going out an helping other guild members, who had been doing another job and needed a hand. It made the game world seem more real, in a sense. It also allowed them to have higher qualifications for guild advancement because you could never run out of work to do, so you could go a while without getting a promotion and still have plenty to keep you busy. Finally, and most importantly, it meant that failure was an option. If you botched a quest, you didn't have to reload. You could go back and report your failure. You'd lose standing with the guild, but you could still get work from them. On the other hand, the jobs were mundane and could occasionally become very tedious and repetitive (which, I suppose, is true of real work, but isn't the whole point of video games is to escape from real work?).

Oblivion, however, went a completely different route. Most of the factions had their own unique storylines, where you could have a direct and powerful influence on how the guild worked (or at least, in theory). The quests were often involved and had their own branches to them, and typically had a lot more depth than the "Go there, fetch/kill that" variety. A "Go find that ring" quest could easily end with exposing a plot and saving the guild. On the other hand, this approach added to the sense that the entire world revolved around you, as it seemed that each guild was incapable of doing anything on their own, which was very counter-immersive. Adding to this was the considerably low entry and advancement requirements, which made it seem like any average Joe could just walk off the street and rescue the guild from whatever perils it was facing. It also means that you only had about ten quests or so until you were left with nothing to do.

As I said above, Morrowind incorporated elements of both, which can go both ways.

So which of the three do you prefer? Given the choice, which would you rather see in TES V?

Obviously "Both" is the best answer, where you have quest-givers handing out randomly generated tasks for you to do, Daggerfall style, and as you advance in the guild a single, hand-crafted storyline slowly becomes available, a la Oblivion. It'd be nice if there were big problems threatening the guild, but you had to spend enough time in the trenches to prove yourself as a high-ranking member in order to become involved. Even when you reached the top, those quest-givers would still be able to give you randomly generated work, if you were bored or felt like helping out the guild.

But I think that such an obvious answer would defeat the purpose of the poll, so it's been excluded. So which of the three games had the best guild experience?
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ezra
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:12 am

Obviously "Both" is the best answer, where you have quest-givers handing out randomly generated tasks for you to do, Daggerfall style, and as you advance in the guild a single, hand-crafted storyline slowly becomes available, a la Oblivion. It'd be nice if there were big problems threatening the guild, but you had to spend enough time in the trenches to prove yourself as a high-ranking member in order to become involved. Even when you reached the top, those quest-givers would still be able to give you randomly generated work, if you were bored or felt like helping out the guild.


Like you say it, this would be the best. Don't know what to pick, because I like the daggerfall quest system, but the storytelling of Oblivions quests. It would really just be nice the way you describe it. I guess I could pick Morrowind since it's some kind of blend, but than again it isn't completely.
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Kelsey Hall
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:05 am

Morrowind didn't have random quests.

Oblivion and Morrowind had the exact same quest system, except there were just more quests and more choices in Morrowind.

The big thing that made Morrowind different was that each guildhall in each city had one or two questgivers with their own set of quests. Plus there was the head guy, who gave the higher ranking questline.

The difference was that in Morrowind, you could play the same guild three or four times in a row and have a unique experience each time and you could choose different quests each time.

In Oblivion, each guild is just one linear questline with 0 replay value, unless you install a mod. Plus, there are no choices to make. Every quest has one, single solution. Although, every now and then, there's a chance to choose how to comment on it.

So Morrowind and Oblivion did the same exact thing, but Morrowind did it better.

Daggerfall, I feel is the compromise between the two. Because, like in Morrowind, every guild hall has quests for you, but like in Oblivion, it's the same quests every time.
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Kate Murrell
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:20 am

I think an amalgam would be neat.

Lower ranks get random generated quests. Higher ranks get access the VIP tasks pertaining to the guild, or can continue doing random quests.
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Kate Norris
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:26 am

Oblivion's quest sorting journal, a couple of randomized quests a la Daggerfall, and then throw in a lot of Morrowind, especially when it comes to faction requirements/conflicts/politics.
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Luis Longoria
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:10 am

Oblivion's quest sorting journal, a couple of randomized quests a la Daggerfall, and then throw in a lot of Morrowind, especially when it comes to faction requirements/conflicts/politics.

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Jessie Rae Brouillette
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:03 am

I think Daggerfall's faction conflicts were pretty well done also.
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laila hassan
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:13 am

I have to vote for Morrowind with Daggerfall coming in at a close second.

While I loved Daggerfall's randomly generated quests, they where far too generic for my taste. It was always "go kill a bear", or "go kill a lycanthrope", while awesome, I feel there needed to be a few more specific quests. For example, hounding people for thier guild dues really showed the beureocracy (yeah, I can't spell) of the Mages Guild.

I also preferred that Morrowind had multiple quests that you could do or ignore. In Oblivion, I had set quests that I HAD to perform, whereas Morrowind let me do my quests in Balmora, or Vivec, or Ald-Ruhn. It was up to me. That's one of the key aspects of an RPG, imo, and I loved it.

My experience with Daggerfall is actually quite limited. Sorry if I'm actually mistaken, as I've only recently got a computer that didn't cry in a corner when running DosBox.

I also loved the fact that in Morrowind and Oblivion, (disregarding enemy scaling) the quests got tougher and more complex as I rose in rank. In Daggerfall, I always had a "kill a bear" quests noo matter what my rnak is in the Fighter's Guild.
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Lily
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:08 am

It would be great if the guild questline was much less structured, and game time had to pass between the quests. There should be the generated quests for day to day operations of the guild, then they can do the storyline as unpaid favors for the guild hall masters. You'd have to get in good standing with them before you get assignments.

Also if this is all part of a larger story, they've gotta include more guild members in the scheme than just you. Maybe have you go on a couple early quests with someone, then they vouch for you to bring you into the know.
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Sheila Reyes
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:37 pm

It would be great if the guild questline was much less structured, and game time had to pass between the quests. There should be the generated quests for day to day operations of the guild, then they can do the storyline as unpaid favors for the guild hall masters. You'd have to get in good standing with them before you get assignments.

Also if this is all part of a larger story, they've gotta include more guild members in the scheme than just you. Maybe have you go on a couple early quests with someone, then they vouch for you to bring you into the know.

I'm surprised that these beaurocracies (can't spell either), never put their members behind a desk.

I agree with your day to day stuff, but it should be even more mundane.

If I'm stuck pushing pencils for hours, then I'll really feel like I've put in work for it when I'm at a rank where they actually trust me with something real.
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how solid
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:10 pm

I'd say a combination of Morrowind and Daggerfall. Like what Cecilff2 said, have your random generated quests for the grunts, and as a person climbs the ranks, they are offered some structured VIP quests, but also is given harder random generated contracts to fulfill.

BUT...If forced to choice between randomly generated quests and structured quests, I'm going to have to say Morrowind's version of structured quests.
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Averielle Garcia
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:34 am

I liked Morrowind's system.
Much better than hey go kill this guy over -- here, hold on a sec, lemme throw a rock to show you where he is...
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roxanna matoorah
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:59 pm

I think that Morrowind had the best quest system.

But one thing that should be changed from Oblivion is how some random person can just join the mages guild and become the leader of the entire guild overnight. You shouldn't be able to become the head of every faction, and if you can, it should be much more difficult and take longer.
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Calum Campbell
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:33 pm

I think that Morrowind had the best quest system.

But one thing that should be changed from Oblivion is how some random person can just join the mages guild and become the leader of the entire guild overnight. You shouldn't be able to become the head of every faction, and if you can, it should be much more difficult and take longer.
You shouldn't be the head of ANY organization! Why would you want that?
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LuBiE LoU
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:06 pm

All of the above. Okay I wrote this a while ago in a suggestions thread and i am positive it has been deleted. So, might as well post it again.
(It's kinda long hence the spoiler tag)
Spoiler
Well, time for my two cents on:
Faction Quests

I just had an idea on how we could combine the quest "variety" of Daggerfall and the "depth" of Oblivion without breaking the bank. Remember how in Oblivion there were only three cities in which one could get a quest for the fighter's guild although there were guildhalls in each city? (except for IC because that wasn't in the "Inner Circle" but I'm ranting) Well, I suggest that there continue to be three major cities in which the PC can receive "important" quests or quests that stand as milemarkers for the PC's advancement through the guild, and how he/she gains his/her fame. In the other cities, however, there should be "menial" quests offered for the PC that still give gold and reputation bonuses, but not increase the PC's reputation.

These quests would be picked out of lists at random from certain bracketts organized by "level" or difficulty. For example, there would be bracketts of quests in the level ranges of [1-4] [5-9] [10-14] [15-19] and [20+] each with about 15 different quests with little depth or gimmicks (things like guard the store, save the kitty, or find my lucky pants). One of these would be offered to the player at random based on the PC's rank. This would go about in this order:(Brackett details at bottom)

Associate- An associate would have a 100% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] brackett as guilds don't give more important matters to newbies.

Apprentice- An apprentice would have a 75% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] range and a 25% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] range as the PC is beginning to undertake responsibilities and the guild wants to see what the PC's made of.

Journeyman- A journeyman would have a 55% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] range and a 45% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] range because the guild now expects the guildmate to begin to take on harder challenges as well as show commitment.

Swordsman- A swordsman should have a 35% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] range, a 50% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] range, and a 15% chance of receiving a quest in the [10-14] range. The "training wheels" are off and the guildmate now has a significant standing among the guild and its affiliates such that he/she is expected to shoulder harder stasks.

Protector- A protector would have a 15% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] range, a 45% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] range, and a 40% chance of receiving a quest in the [10-14] range. At this point, the guildmate is beginning to be looked upon as a role-model, and must begin to act like one.

Defender- A defender in the fighter's guild should have a 0% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] range, a 25% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] range, a 55% chance of receiving a quest in the [10-14] range, and a 20% chance of receiving a quest in the [15-19] range. The PC is becoming a very popular person for completing quests in the guild, and the guild realizes that his/her skills are better put to more difficult tasks.

Guardian- A guardian should have a 10% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] brackett, a 45% chance of receiving a quest in the [10-14] brackett, and a 45% chance of receiving a quest in the [15-19] brackett. The guildmate is now their go-to guy to get the job done, and is trusted with some of the most difficult tasks.

Champion- A champion should have a 10% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] brackett, a 25% chance of receiving a quest in the [10-14] brackett, a 35% chance in the [15-19] brackett, and a 30% chance of receiving a quest in the [20+] brackett. The champion is one step below the guildmaster and should be the best that the fighter's guild has to offer. People know who the PC is, and know not to waste his/her time.

Master- the master has a 45% chance of picking up a quest in the [15-19] brackett and a 55% chance of picking up a quest in the [20+] brackett.

In order to advance in rank, a guildsman would have to complete a certain amount of these quests as well as the "milestone" quests. This would fluidly incorporate Daggerfall's volume, Morrowind's skill requirements, and Oblivion's "depth". Other factors would also affect the odds of what sort of quest the player gets such as luck and reputation. So if the player is level 2 and an slid through to Journeyman rank on brackett [1-4] quests, but his luck was damaged or he insulted the questgiver in some manner, his odds of receiving the harder quest would increase. Likewise, someone of Protector rank at level 15 with low luck or questgiver disposition would get the easier quest because of its lack of challenge and reward. This allows the player to still use the guild as a profession as much as a plot so that instead of cheating alchemy to get the gold needed to repair your armor and buy your house, you're doing quests and earning gold as well as training your combat skills while creating a unique-ish environment for the player to live in with his/her consequences.

Now those "milestone" quests would involve some overheading storyline, and fall together hopefully seemlessly without doing something along the lines of setting up a quest, but not giving it to you because of rank. The difficulty in these quests should be around the upper levels of the "Miscelaneous" faction quests for the PC's rank.

Now (as said earlier) here's the general rundown of the quest bracketts:

[1-4]- These quests would be things like "save the kitty" or the ever so famous "rat" quest. These are more along the lines of chores as much as quests. The payout for these is 50 gold and an ever so modest faction rep-bump

[5-9]- These quests begin to feel more like quests. Now that the guild trusts the player, these quests can still be menial, but carry weight like delivering sealed messages. However, they should also be more perilous. So things like "Kill the bear that's in my closet!" or "Escourt this person that's had a bad run-in with such'n'such a faction to such'n'such a place" can now be done. The reward for these quests is 100 gold and a less modest rep bump

[10-14]- These quests begin to be more difficult, and begin to offer some loot. Things like "Kill these bandits" and "Goblins have taken over my farm" begin to show up. The pay for these quests is 200 gold and a better rep bump.

[15-19]- Things now become dangerous and potentially lethal. The things that would be done at this level are "Kill the necromancer at the bottom of Castle Ceiling Flail" and "You and a raiding party are to storm a marauder stronghold, and kill their leader" These quests generally are dungeon delves that begin to take the player to the darker corners of the map where more powerful monsers and "baddies" live. These quests pay out a handsom 500 gold and earn you some real respect among your guildmates.

[20+]- These quests are essentially high-level challenge runs where things expected of you are "Destroy the followers of Mehrunes Dagon at the shrine of such'n'such" at such'n'such, there would be many daedra as well as cultists armed to the teeth with high-quality items. The payout for these quests is a cool 1000 gold and bragging rights amoung the guild... or horror stories at the bar.

EDIT: There was more with an in-depth look on the Thieves' Guild. However, I unfortunately did not save it, and it has been lost to time in these forums. (I've looked. The thread was deleted after the site update)

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Jessica Nash
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:25 am

You shouldn't be the head of ANY organization! Why would you want that?

Nah, it really should be a choice.

But there should be a ton more responsibilities that eat up all your time.

That way, a person would at least think twice before taking on that role. Because it should definitely make it hard, if not impossible, to complete the main quest, if you've committed yourself to really working up in a guild.

And actually, to coincide with real life, the middle ranks should actually be a lot more work than the upper ranks. As people in the very high ranks do seem to have a bit more free time.

And the Master could get long vacations. But of course the guild would really start to deteriorate if he's gone for too long. Or worse, someone claims his position in his absence... or her.

So, the ranks right underneath the head master should be the ones with the most responsibilities that require a true commitment. But, then, you get a lot less responsibilities as the Master. However, the consequences are a lot more severe if you neglect them, and could include exile or even assassination attempts.

And remember how how the guild members used to sit down and eat together in Oblivion?

Well, what about, at the higher ranks, you sit down to eat with your guild mates to discuss guild matters. And this is when a screen could pop up displaying budgets and building projects and assignments for the guild recruits and the like, which you could toggle (different ranks would have different responsibilities on their toggle window).

If you have enemies, they may try to poison you at these meals, so try to leave some food on your plate. But it you refuse to eat at all, you lose disposition points from everyone at the table because it's bad etiquette. And you must try the wine, so an enemy will only attempt to poison your wine if they really loathe you, or really mean business (directly under you in rank when your overall reputation with the guild is low).

That being said, your rank shouldn't rely on your overall guild reputation, but also your individual relationships. For example, you could be a hated leader with the right friends. Or a beloved asset to the guild, but your corrupt direct superior hates you so there's no chance of advancement unless you move or have him removed.

EDIT: That being said, it should be more of a hassle to move great distances, so that your character isn't always jumping from city to city like Indiana Jones (That way, moving to a new city and working in a different guild hall would actually be a decision to ponder over).
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Gaelle Courant
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:19 am

Oblivions Fighter's guild quest line was much better than Morrowinds. I felt like I belonged to a bunch of ruthless mercenaries than a guild of fighters in Vvardenfell. The same can be said with the theives guild (vs. the comma tong) and the dark brother hood (vs the Morag Tong)

All in all, the production value was simply higher. Even if they were both on the same graphical level, the idea of stealing the elderscrolls, or blowing up the blackwood company HQ sounds better than how morrowinds guild quests end.

Each games actual quest structure could use some work, though.

Memorization and spelling of places is key when traveling in daggerfall. Thats no good. Morrowinds direction system was somewhat faulty due to inability to see your full surroundings and Oblivion simply coached you in the right direction, leaving little sense of challenge or adventure.

I think if we bring back morrowind's system, provided that we can ask for directions, we should have no problems.
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Dean
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:38 am

Nah, it really should be a choice.

But there should be a ton more responsibilities that eat up all your time.
That doesn't work. Guilds need a real structure to them, the semblance of reasonability. The head of the guild needs to be juggling a network of clients and guildmembers, expense accounts, material schedules, and perhaps most importantly, the other guilds. Do you know how many kill orders come from guildmasters? Unless you're the mage's guild, they'd have to be getting documentation lined up to ensure the status of people they want killed! Then there's marketing and dismantling the competition. You have to throw down town councils, abuse country peasants not under your control, and beat up noblemen to maintain your power. And this would be for something like the mason's guild, not something large like the Fighter's or Mages. We can't settle for lame little boring guilds.

That way, a person would at least think twice before taking on that role. Because it should definitely make it hard, if not impossible, to complete the main quest, if you've committed yourself to really working up in a guild.
The responsibilities a guildmaster would hold are not the sorts of things Bethesda would program into a game.

And actually, to coincide with real life, the middle ranks should actually be a lot more work than the upper ranks. As people in the very high ranks do seem to have a bit more free time.

And the Master could get long vacations. But of course the guild would really start to deteriorate if he's gone for too long. Or worse, someone claims his position in his absence... or her.
Vacations weren't really a concept lower orders of workers should have. Being head of a guild is like being a powerful merchant, and the nobles still don't invite you to parties unless they need your money. You're considered an inferior person to them.

And remember how how the guild members used to sit down and eat together in Oblivion?
Inappropriate, just like the beds at a guildhall. This isn't a hotel for members in between jobs, this is a place of business! They aren't serving their own guys lunch.

Well, what about, at the higher ranks, you sit down to eat with your guild mates to discuss guild matters. And this is when a screen could pop up displaying budgets and building projects and assignments for the guild recruits and the like, which you could toggle (different ranks would have different responsibilities on their toggle window).

If you have enemies, they may try to poison you at these meals, so try to leave some food on your plate. But it you refuse to eat at all, you lose disposition points from everyone at the table because it's bad etiquette. And you must try the wine, so an enemy will only attempt to poison your wine if they really loathe you, or really mean business (directly under you in rank when your overall reputation with the guild is low).

That being said, your rank shouldn't rely on your overall guild reputation, but also your individual relationships. For example, you could be a hated leader with the right friends. Or a beloved asset to the guild, but your corrupt direct superior hates you so there's no chance of advancement unless you move or have him removed.
:sb: I don't think so man.
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Tarka
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:50 am

I don't know, I like it.

And I mean the master takes vacations, not the lower members.

But, yeah, I'd definitely like to see more real responsibilities and micro-managing for the upper ranks. And inter-guild conspiracies and opportunities to work out the details with other leaders.

If the NPCs can do it, I can do it better. And I'd better be allowed to do it, otherwise it isn't a completely open world.

EDIT: somebody get this freakin duck away from me :sb:
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Marguerite Dabrin
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:44 am

I don't know, I like it.

And I mean the master takes vacations, not the lower members.

But, yeah, I'd definitely like to see more real responsibilities and micro-managing for the upper ranks. And inter-guild conspiracies and opportunities to work out the details with other leaders.

If the NPCs can do it, I can do it better. And I'd better be allowed to do it, otherwise it isn't a completely open world.

TES games aren't political simulations...
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Josephine Gowing
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:08 am

TES games aren't political simulations...

The politics ought to be way more involved.

And what's a title without real responsibilities? You should work your way up the guild ranks just for the Xbox achievements. How about make it so we can roleplay more?
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RAww DInsaww
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:32 am

I'd rather they have a mix -- a set of complex, scripted quests, and random guild errands for you to practice skills and game mechanics and give you an excuse to stick to a certain type of character.

However, instead of having guild-specific questlines, I'd prefer that the guilds each have a different take on a number of major plots and subplots (though not every guild would be involved in every quest). So, you'd deal with the same events, but from a different perspective with each character. The guild would just provide a valid reason for you to be involved and a specific goal to achieve.
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Karine laverre
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:43 am

The politics ought to be way more involved.

And what's a title without real responsibilities? You should work your way up the guild ranks just for the Xbox achievements. How about make it so we can roleplay more?

First point: What achievements?

Second point: I agree on role-playing more, but I worry about the game lacking in content due to too much focus on post-guild mastery events. If micro-management and focus of the game are crammed into factions after the endpoint(inter-faction problems and complexity that would rival or go past the guilds' respective questlines in depth and gameplay time), I believe a Daggerfall style head-of-guilds system should be brought back(isn't one: so no becoming guild leader). After rising to the top of a faction, I agree that some type of gameplay involved with that faction needs to exist, but with complexity you are suggesting, the game would be lacking in other areas, forcing one to be a member of a certain faction to experience anything fun about the game and changing the game series from the action-adventure CRPG series it is to a political simulation series.
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Stefanny Cardona
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:32 am

First point: What achievements?

Second point: I agree on role-playing more, but I worry about the game lacking in content due to too much focus on post-guild mastery events. If micro-management and focus of the game are crammed into factions after the endpoint(inter-faction problems and complexity that would rival or go past the guilds' respective questlines in depth and gameplay time), I believe a Daggerfall style head-of-guilds system should be brought back(isn't one: so no becoming guild leader). After rising to the top of a faction, I agree that some type of gameplay involved with that faction needs to exist, but with complexity you are suggesting, the game would be lacking in other areas, forcing one to be a member of a certain faction to experience anything fun about the game and changing the game series from the action-adventure CRPG series it is to a political simulation series.

Not necessarily.

Those little micromanagement type toggles and orders for recruits don't have to be complex. Just enough to consume your time so that you're not riding high on your reputation and pretty much doing nothing to maintain it.

I want to have lots of other stuff to do, of course, but while I'm part of the leadership of a guild I want my responsibilities to really weigh me down... to the point where I have to actually make a serious decision which guild to commit to, or if I really want to be a guild leader at all.

The lower ranks are really just for those who want some training and ways to make gold. But leadership is a full time thing.

And the series was never about action... just read the Daggerfall manual.
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Carlos Vazquez
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:45 pm

Not necessarily.

Those little micromanagement type toggles and orders for recruits don't have to be complex. Just enough to consume your time so that you're not riding high on your reputation and pretty much doing nothing to maintain it.

I want to have lots of other stuff to do, of course, but while I'm part of the leadership of a guild I want my responsibilities to really weigh me down... to the point where I have to actually make a serious decision which guild to commit to, or if I really want to be a guild leader at all.

The lower ranks are really just for those who want some training and ways to make gold. But leadership is a full time thing.

And the series was never about action... just read the Daggerfall manual.

Randomly-generated quest route?

The first game in the series was originally supposed to be about competing in Arenas(still a lot of enemy-killing dungeon crawling without that original plan in place, though) and most quests in Daggerfall involve killing something. I didn't say the series was about action, but action and adventure are a large part of the series.

"Go to and ; don't forget to kill enemies that may try to stop you along the way."
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Alyce Argabright
 
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Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:11 pm

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