im sure they were working on it but couldnt perfect it in the time they had now years later im sure it will be in the way its meant to be

Well, as you could see in that video they already had radiant AI, they just didn't implement it in the game for some reason. I'm sure that it'll be in the game now because they've had 5+ years to perfect it . I just hope that the consoles will be god enough to use radiant Ai, because if they don't they'll leave it out of the Pc version aswel .

You have to remember that that demo was not supposed to be released to the public, but it got leaked. So they really didn't lie or exaggerate anything. This demo represented what was in the game at that time and was only supposed to be shown behind closed doors.

Still I do regret watching it back then, cause I was slightly disappointed by the final product. But at least I learned to never watch any leaked info from a game that the developer didn't want out.

Err what? Assuming we're all talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjbx6-KQoRg, they purposefully displayed that as part of their to-the-public E3 showcase of Oblivion.

That's funny, I don't remember it like that. I remember it like this: the demo was showcased behind closed doors, it got leaked in less than stellar quality, Bethesda caved in and released the demo videos themselves. I admit that I could be wrong though.

What I love most about this topic... is that even the original poster admits that they didn't -lie-. He corrected his choice of words.


The fact of the matter is, Bethesda has -always- been a game studio that gets excited about its work. They have -always- gone over the top in order to make people enjoy their games, and keep things new and exciting. During E3, when that video was presented, they were -thrilled- at the new system of AI which allowed the NPCs in their game to behave in lifelike and interesting ways, all without being individually scripted.

They wanted us all to see it, not because there would be some rush of people so ENTHUSIASTIC about AI (which, to be honest, almost nobody cares about except for those of us here on the forums and technophiles) but because they were ENTHUSIASTIC about the fact that they had created this system which made previously lifeless NPC's actually go about their daily lives like living individuals in the world.

And then, when things went haywire and Microsoft began pushing them harder (after all, Oblivion was what SOLD the 360... so it naturally got the Halo treatment of rush delivery) and harder to get the damn game done, some things didn't have time to get fixed.

Radiant AI is -still- present in the game. As stated before, turn off all the factions and scripting and -watch- just how crazy things can get.

I've done it. It's amazing... and a little frightening.


There was no lying. There is no conspiracy.

But the more you tell the paranoid folks with their heads in the clouds, the more they want to believe you're hiding something. What is there to hide? Go play the game, and see for yourself.

There is a difference between LYING, and the 'TRUTH' changing.

One is a willful intent to deceive. The other is a changing of circumstances.


Folks are entitled to be skeptical... sure. You should -always- take promises with a grain of salt, even when it's someone you trust. There's always the chance you might wind up disappointed in the end. But if you go around calling everyone who ever told you something, only to later have to go back on their word for a legitimate reason a liar... then that doesn't make them a liar.

It makes you an uncompromising bastard. And that's the long and the short of it.

The game was better off with a couple of concessions they made... and worse off with a couple others. In the long run, the game we got was great... but flawed. If you want to be nervous about what is going into Skyrim and what isn't, that's your prerogative.

But if you want to be calling names and pointing fingers and making blatantly false accusations, whose sole basis is your own subjective claims of malicious intent, then I'm going to have to point that ringer right back and say that you, sir, are a liar.

Nobody likes to be called a liar, now do they?

It was scripted! There was nothing radiant about their AI. And in the final game, the AI wasn't advanced either.

Just like a lot of stuff is scripted in the new "gameplay" video (more like "in-game" video)

Of course it was scripted, and the "real" radiant AI would have been scripted too, there's no way a npc can do something out of his/her imagination, everything is scripted and the npc checks some predefined lists of actions and matches them to another list of predefined events.

I think the "chaos" theory could be valid at that time, maybe they didn't have enough time, but now I expect no less than the "real" Radiant AI. The npc going to the shop and buying everything doesn't stand after another 5 years of development, really. You can put a label on every quest item so the trader will check that value everytime someone buys and if it's not the player, the item is not for sale. Easy as that. About essential npcs killing each other, make guards arrest them instead of slaying them, and make essential npcs wear a label that tells them to surrender if they're outmatched in a fight.

I'd don't think Beth telling a bit of a lie means they're totally unethical, nor do I think they are 100% about money...but like any good company $$$ plays a large part, it has to, it's how their children get fed.

Reasons to over hype other than for $$$ include:
- it helps the game get awards, which can be appreciated as its own accomplishment in addition to the slew of sales they will cause (a portion of the game purchase pie I think larger than you apparently). Awards as affirmation. A pat on the back & job well done.
- it's just more interesting to talk hype. No one likes to sit and talk or listen about the parts of the game that will be status quo, so they focus on the new and the stuff that isn't even likely but theoretically possible b/c it's more interesting. Afterall, nobody want to be that boring speaker or feel like crickets are chirping during a product promo.
- (as several people have said) b/c everyone else is doing it. Maybe they feel pressured to overhype and bend truth b/c if they're honest their game won't get the rachous applause, a many fan sites, and the numerous features by the game journalists that rival games that are lying get. Thus a sort of peer pressure could compel them to intentionally overstate things, just to avoid being seen as 2nd tier due to the other guys lying and being see as better when they aren't.


Anyway, just trying to say, I'm not declaring Bethesda money [censored]s, just mistruth claiming overhypers (it that more acceptable here?).

that video of the woman and dog was definitely scripted and not RAI before being stripped down. getting her bow and quiver, going to target practice, getting the potion to improve her skills wont result in the big npc bloodbath they said. even if you remove factions in OB they wont suddenly go practice archery on their own (that ai package has to be added, not dynamically decided by the AI), nor down a potion to improve practice skills (how will that prevent npcs slaughtering each other?).

removing factions might make them more prone to steal and kill each other, but it wont come close to letting them do what that video showed them doing unless it was scripted in. it wont give them more "routines" or "activities" certainly. even the stealing that would be more prone to do, they would only do if they were on ai packages that told them to do it.

and "get over it"? then when it comes out missing promised features, we "get over it" again?

In Fallout 3 they call each other by their name, there're less characters so it's easier to do for them... but the dialog between NPC in FO3 was a big step forward from oblivion's.

So yeah, I believe it will be even better in Skyrim

Hah, I just might try that. Sounds like it would be fun, and make the world actually feel scary like in Morrowind.

while the myth to reality of oblivion svcked, I still to this day don't feel like I was taken advantage of, not Peter Molyneux style anyway. IDK exactly what the difference is, but I do think that Bethesda truly wanted the game to be the way we wanted it, and maybe thats what the difference is.

Even with the edit, I find this entire post and concept very negative, un-optimistic and un-realistic.

I think folks should enjoy their $60 games for the value we get for the investment, I think folks should celebrate the Awesome quality of the video games we have received every few years from BGS, and I think folks should keep their glasses half-full.

But thats me.

After having paid 70$ and playing for 10 hours, I felt I was taken advantage of. All bandits had daedric-armor, the quests were all bad, the dialogue was awkward, there was no roleplaying, the dungeons svcked and nothing was as shown in trailers. How did ALL reviewers miss all that? Oh yeah, that's right...... they were bribed. "Give us 9,5+ or we won't give you early review-copies and exclusive information and luxus-hotel-vacations". Fallout 3 was slightly better, but not by much. An hour long tutorial? WTF? And "Have you seen my father, a middle-aged guy..."
New Vegas was far better, but ofcourse that was developed by a company, that actually makes RPG's.
I am still going to get Skyrim probably, but it sure won't be a day-1 purchase for me.

You only played for 10 hours, and you're trying to review ALL quests, and say certain things weren't in the game?

Beth never lied, radiant AI is in the game. It just isn't to the scaled that they originally planned because it got too buggy.

..and you judge all of that after playing 10 miserable hours? Wow, you must be a genius or something.

I'm the most critic towards Oblivion (being a MW player also helps to the task), but neither all the quests were bad, or dialogue was ackward, or there was no roleplaying (that's entirely up to you).

The dungeons also weren't bad, only terribly repetitive. Once you've seen 3-4 of each type, you've seen them all.

People tend to forget that there was a game Bethesda released after Oblivion. It wasn't the same series, but it was called Oblivion with guns for a reason.

So, have they lied/exaggerated in the Fallout 3 videos?
Well there was Megaton, but it was more like the people expected too much.

After 10 hours, I began to experience all the bad things about the game, yes. I then later tried it with OOO+100 mods, but seriously even mods can't fix this game.
Yes, all quests were bad. Even the Dark Brotherhood quests, which are hailed as the best, are still pretty bland, although slightly better than the rest.
Saying "roleplaying is entirely up to you" is pretty [censored], no offense. I had no choice on how to play my character in the game through my choices and those consequenses
If all dungeons are so terribly repetitive, then yes, they are indeed bad.

In 10 hours....in a time which allows you to barely complete the MQ (1st playthough)...yeeeah.



Neither with all the tons of excellent RP-oriented mods that there are out there? And the dozens of awesome questmods? And new items? Of course, it'd take much more than just 10 hours only to see them all...



Let's technically "agree" on that (which I don't), but...



...you've freedom of choice since the very beginning. I've roleplayed without problems an assasin/thug/skooma dealer, a paladin/knight/Imperial Legion officer with a big castle and men to command, and a mad mage who had his lair in a pocket dimension, along with unique quests suited for all of them.

Vanilla Oblivion was not perfect indeed, but still a good game to start with. But saying that "neither mods can save it" is being utterly and totally ignorant, and thus your arguments are pointless. Also, having played only 10 hours contributes to that. RPG's may not be your gaming style (in fact I'm sure they aren't), but don't blame them for that.



There's a difference between repetitive, and bad. Learn it.

You really should learn to read better. After only 10 hours I began experiencing all those things, as I said. Didn't say I only played it for 10 hours. I am quite masochistic, I completed Oblivion and all the guilds.

Sure, there was a couple of fun quest mods, like that archeology mod. But they still suffered heavily under the bland, bland gameplay of Oblivion. AND the mods wasn't in the original game, ofcourse - so no point discussing them further.


"skooma dealer" - so just walking around selling skomma and doing the thieves guild quests.

"a paladin/knight/Imperial Legion officer with a big castle and men to command" - no big castles or men to command in the original game.

"and a mad mage who had his lair in a pocket dimension" - so basically, just a regular mage with a big inventory?

Sounds like some good roleplaying indeed. This is just as stupid as those people who are LARP'ing that their character on the 360 have to take a bath every half hour and is replying something different to all quest-givers than he actually is, because there is usually only 1 response to give in Oblivion. In a true RPG, you should actually be able to influence what happens in the game based on your choices.

The games not even out yet, wait and see ha ha.

I hope the radiant ai will be everything that it was supposed to be last time. It was a mistake to advertise it with a demo before they were sure if it can work, but anyway it was a major upgrade from Morrowind. I don't expect the upgrade in ai to be as big from Oblivion to Skyrim like it was from Morrowind to Oblivion. Most likely there will be more scripts for npc behaviour which will enhance the feeling of "non-repetitive" actions.

I agree. Heck, if one can role play with his mind only, then I can roleplay in a hockey game as well. The choices and consequences should be delivered with the game, my imagination is a bonus. Role playing means using the game TOOLS to customize your character such as different skill builds to be played differently and the dialogue choices to lead to different outcomes.

Indeed. With that attitude, you could just as well play a skooma-dealer in Half-Life. Your grenades are skooma, and the merchants are the zombies.
Or you could also call Half-Life an RPG because you play the role of a scientist trying to save the world with a crowbar.

The game have to actually be an RPG before you can actually roleplay in it, and giving you different outcome depending on your choices.