Beth needs to completely rebalance spells : V - Skyrim

» Fri May 13, 2011 10:45 am

You say that "if you don't like it, don't use it isn't an excuse" but why not? I play as a mage and yes I do on occasion use some of the "exploits" you refer to. I'm not hurting anyone else's experience. It's a single player game so I don't understand the problem. If a multiplayer component is ever tacked on (I hope not) then yes I would whole heartedly agree that spells need to be rebalanced, but until that day comes I hope Beth keeps things exactly the way they are, and if you don't like then it don't use it. :shrug:

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:18 am

No.

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:51 pm

oh gosh...another person who thinks changing things is "fixing" when i find this to be much worse then what i was given. Chameleon isjust a spell name btw.doesnt mean it gives u real chameleon powers....i can hardly agree with any of your suggestions if any at all.

» Fri May 13, 2011 3:17 pm

No way, go play a hack n slash.

I think you are confused with an aspect of certain modern games in that they take you by the hand an lead you down an alley.
Same ole alley every playthrough. lovely scenery though.
Elder scrolls has a bit more depth, traditionally, though they did badly last game.

Do not petition to take the choice out of elder scrolls gameplay because you like hack n slash games.

» Fri May 13, 2011 4:51 am

Umh, imbalance is what causes a hack & slash where it was not intended. But each to his own I guess.
I've suggested "half stacking", and a "max effect" on spell effects. I.e. if Chameleon was maxed at 70%, no matter how many items or spells you stacked each would only matter half, ending up at never being fully able to reach 70% total. Do you *really* want to spend an enchantment only to gain a 5% increase since you already have to much, or is it better spent somewhere else? Highest rated item scaled at 50%, next at 25%, next at 12.5% etc.

» Fri May 13, 2011 5:25 pm

Silence needs a workover too. It needs to have a threshold magnitude similar to Dispel (not the broken one in Oblivion) where if it's a spell too strong it can overcome the Silence effect. Every time I went up against a Gnarl I simply just console-killed it, because I would inevitably be hit up with an agonizingly long Silence spell that completely nullified my spellcasting for at least 20 seconds, and the spell was itself immune to Silence on account of being a lesser power so the damn gnarl could cast it to its heart's content.

» Fri May 13, 2011 12:54 pm

Looks like we will have glyphs - trap spells are confirmed :shocking:

» Fri May 13, 2011 9:31 am

Looks like we will have glyphs - trap spells are confirmed :shocking:

An adaptation of the landmine functionality they devised for FO3.

I bet things in Skyrim spell-wise are a lot easier to set up now that they have projectiles and explosions in their own forms separate from the spell effect. Technically, the mines in FO3 were "projectiles".

I wonder if the more mundane will have trap weapons too... Maybe Alchemy can whip up something more than poisons for offensive purposes now? Alchemical grenades and bombs?

» Fri May 13, 2011 5:11 pm

I think they were fine as is.

Why can't inviability be used during battle? Why would something you absorb still hurt you? It wouldn't.

Plus the more powerful spells are balanced with the cost to make them

I agree you should be able to cast invisibilty in batte.
But i still think invisibilty was too esy to use,made they game easy.
What they need to do in my opinion is this.
Make it cost more magic
If you have no fatigue,the spell works but reduces time or transparancy.
Some enemies should have true sight.
Enemies can still hear or smell you,not all though. ( some have better hearing & sense of smell etc. )
Also another problem was the AI.....Example : If a mage saw you turn invisible,he could too,or be clever enough to use detect life etc.....or bandits could send dogs to sniff you out etc.
I believe AI response can help with spell balance too,if that makes sense.but i think all of these things would stop the spamming of invisibilty,and not make it so overpowered.

» Fri May 13, 2011 4:06 am

No.
These exploits aren't bad design, it would make a huge sense for a wizard or magician to put a Weakness to Shock in a Shock Spell, if you have the ability to do it why wouldn't you? It just enhances the spell, like putting an enchantment on a weapon.

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:31 pm

An adaptation of the landmine functionality they devised for FO3.

I bet things in Skyrim spell-wise are a lot easier to set up now that they have projectiles and explosions in their own forms separate from the spell effect. Technically, the mines in FO3 were "projectiles".

I wonder if the more mundane will have trap weapons too... Maybe Alchemy can whip up something more than poisons for offensive purposes now? Alchemical grenades and bombs?

That would actually make me use Alchemy. It was rather pointless for me with my play style, but being able to set up traps like that would be a major bonus.

I agree you should be able to cast invisibilty in batte.
But i still think invisibilty was too esy to use,made they game easy.
What they need to do in my opinion is this.
Make it cost more magic
If you have no fatigue,the spell works but reduces time or transparancy.
Some enemies should have true sight.
Enemies can still hear or smell you,not all though. ( some have better hearing & sense of smell etc. )
Also another problem was the AI.....Example : If a mage saw you turn invisible,he could too,or be clever enough to use detect life etc.....or bandits could send dogs to sniff you out etc.
I believe AI response can help with spell balance too,if that makes sense.but i think all of these things would stop the spamming of invisibilty,and not make it so overpowered.

Or perhaps make invisability "work" but it doesnt fool everything. Like perhaps dogs, or magical creatures of kinds can still tell where you are.

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:39 pm

That would actually make me use Alchemy. It was rather pointless for me with my play style, but being able to set up traps like that would be a major bonus.

Or perhaps make invisability "work" but it doesnt fool everything. Like perhaps dogs, or magical creatures of kinds can still tell where you are.

Yeah its similar thinking to me.But the invisibilty spell does need looking at...it really was too easy to use it.
It needs to be toned down or have a proper weakness,or better AI response...like i suggested in the post before or what you've said ( which similar thinking ).
Being invisible in a full set of heavy armour was easy,they did'nt really react to sound as they should of,it's like invisibilty gave you soft step ability too.....did'nt make sense to me.

» Fri May 13, 2011 2:24 pm

Chamelon should just not stack up, that's all. If you want 100% Chameleon, you have to cast 100% Chameleon in one monster spell

Resist damage? Simply decrease the max magnitude on constant enchantments so you can't get 100% with equipment alone.

Reflect and absorb aren't broken IMO.

Fire, frost and shock shield should deal damage to melee-attacking enemies :thumbsup: . THAT would guarantee they'll be used.

No invisibility in combat? Oh, come on. That would remove THE last magical means to escape from a tough fight. Plus, you need to be very skilled to cast Invisibility at all. Might as well there be use in it in combat.

Restore health, fatigue and magicka can't be used in a constant effect - already done in Oblivion.

» Fri May 13, 2011 5:20 pm

I agree with what OP said about Chameleon, but nothing else. They should just make stuff more difficult to cast -- invisibility for instance should be almost impossible for people who're not master illusionists. Same goes for paralysis. Removing/replacing spells should be avoided - the more the merrier.

» Fri May 13, 2011 3:41 pm

I like the fact that there are only 85 spells, as that means they have far less to balance overall. I actually liked the spell system they used in Oblivion, but have to admit that Midas added alot of zest on top of that.

In this case I think that aesthetics matter; beautiful, powerful and "awesome"-looking spells that make me Want to cast them repeatedly removes some of the monotony out of being a full-time caster. Even some variation in a spell based on whether your outdoors, indoors, small space, would make it even more thrilling. I am reminded of an interview with Todd in regarding the making of Fallout 3; in which they said much time was spent on the Pip-Boy because they wanted to make the action of inventory/stat viewing Fun, not just a tiresome task all the time. I think the new UI concept they described in GI very much continues with this trend and I see spell-casting the same way; It's a task we have to perform thousands and thousands of times with the same combat or utility spells, so making those fun and thrilling when they are cast would go a long way to Brightening a casters day.

Miax

» Fri May 13, 2011 11:00 am

We all know how broken some of the spells and combinations are yet the same broken spells from Morrowind are still broken in Oblivion and I haven't heard Beth indicate anything will change. I'd like to see what the community can come up with for completely rebalancing effects like chameleon without just removing them.
Here's my attempt:

Chameleon takes a second to readjust to your new background. Chameleons can't instantly change colour they need some time so it only makes sense that you only become invisible if you stop jumping around and if the enemies see where you stop then they still attack you.

Weakness can't be cast in the same spell as the damage type it's weakening the enemy against. If you want to cast 100% weakness to fire and magic you have to go through multiple casts giving them a chance to dodge before you nuke them.

Paralysis should be replaced completely by petrify, it does the same thing except it greatly increases their defence and looks much cooler.

Resist damage shouldn't stack with itself, if you have a helmet of 50% resist and a shirt of 50% resist the engine flips 2 coins if both come up tails you get smacked.

Reflect doesn't block the damage it just reflects it back at the opponent hurting them unless it reflects a spell in which case instead of dropping dead it actually reflects the blast and they have to jump out of the way.

Absorb doesn't block damage it just gives you mana from a spell.

Lightning, fire and frost shield are the only ways to get 100% immunity to an attack while resist magic gets capped at 50%, this will mean they actually get used.

Invisibility can't be cast if you're already in a fight or preferrably since Skyrim is full of snow the enemies can follow your tracks, though this will require much more dev time.

Restore health, fatigue and majicka can't be used in a constant effect.

I think that would greatly improve the thought needed when fighting with spells and prevent players from enchanting a load of gear to make themselves invulnerable.

I agree in two ways. Reflect, and absorb could be exploited to great effect and gamebreak. The same with chameleon, but what a great time when you first build that chameleon suit. This is the case where you have the choice to wear this silly thing or not. So in that way I disagree.

Furthermore, restore health, fatigue and majicka could not be used as constant effects in Oblivion. The same thing goes for lowering resistances to elemental and magic attacks. Although you could put the weaknesses in the same spell, they were not calculated thus, already requiring you to cast your spell twice and making the first spell wasteful on majicka.

... and, are you nuts!!!

If I can't run around making people fall over because their paralyzed, I don't know what I would with myself!!

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:11 pm

Why can't inviability be used during battle? Why would something you absorb still hurt you? It wouldn't.

Power surge I guess. You'd be channelling a sudden overload of Magicka, leading to the spell still causing damage. I'm impartial to the suggestion really. I wouldn't care either way. Just saying, there's ways of explaining it whichever way it goes.

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:08 am

Just remove Chameleon completely, and increase mana cost of Invisibility. Reflect and Absarb are okay. Elemental shield spells should protect the user from the elemental magic and increase shielding like a normal bit, but make normal shield spells cheaper and easier to cast. Resist should be stackable. Resist Magic should shield the user of ALL non-elemental spells; even 'friendly' ones. Yes, you are immune to magic, but at what cost? Makes it great for barbarians, though.

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:25 pm

Resist Magic should shield the user of ALL non-elemental spells; even 'friendly' ones. Yes, you are immune to magic, but at what cost? Makes it great for barbarians, though.

This would be pretty damn cool. Especially considering there's a precedent for it in the lore. See http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-firsthold-revolt, after Barenziah's daughter, Queen Morgiah plays a shrewd trick on some traitors.

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:15 pm

Resist Magic should shield the user of ALL non-elemental spells; even 'friendly' ones. Yes, you are immune to magic, but at what cost? Makes it great for barbarians, though.

That wiould kill Bretons as a spellcasting race. <_<

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:32 pm

Meh, really don't see the need to "rebalance" anything. Most powerful "exploit" spells take a lot of Magicka to use, and enchantment takes Sould Gems, hunting and killing a decent soul, and then lots of money (may be different with the return of Enchantment skill, but in MW buying was always more reliable).

It makes sense that as a powerful Mage you should be a force of nature. Easily surpassing most obstacles. No it shouldn't be as easy to do, but it should still be possible. I like working towards being a Demi-god, it's a feeling of progression, and is believable in TES. There's a difficulty slider if you want to have a permanent challenge all the time.

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:50 am

thats called bad game design.

The spells are fine, the problem is how easy it is to get 100% chameleon, absorb, and sheild..resulting in God-Mode.

I hope its fixed.

single player game it hurt no on if i want a 100% ability that my business and not yours or other people,my character my choice.

» Fri May 13, 2011 8:03 am

single player game it hurt no on if i want a 100% ability that my business and not yours or other people,my character my choice.

So let's just all be hush and not confess to the exploits we've used. Then noone will complain, right?... right? :shrug: Guess not.

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:44 pm

That wiould kill Bretons as a spellcasting race. <_<

Indeed. Bretons are meant to be more defensive spellcasters, and they lose a LOT of their bite if their on-self spells are all half as effective.

Although I see a way it may possibly be circumvented... A hidden perk or something that makes on-self spells have a 2x magnitude multiplier. Is it magnitude that Resist reduced in previous games, or does duration get mitigated too?

» Fri May 13, 2011 3:27 pm

That makes it even worse game design. It takes less than an hour to get 100% god-mode effects from enchanting..

And your point? It isn't an MMO. It's a single player game. If I want to play god why shouldn't I be able to? If you want to not play god, don't. I enjoyed hurling fireballs wrapped with weakness to magic and fire from high in the sky on the poor unsuspecting townsfolk.

Heck sometimes I wouldn't bother with the enchanting, I'd just open the console with ~ and type TGM.

The point is : If you don't want to take advantage of the magic system in that fashion, don't. No one will force you to.